Tire width

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Tire width

Post by Telomere » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:36 pm

I am just curious to know if any of you, when purchasing new tires, have changed the width of either the front or rear tire? If so, can you tell the difference while riding (does it change the handling of the bike in a positive or negative way)? Is this a bad thing to do (I don't mean a drastic width change but just a slight one from like 130 up to 140 or down to 120.)

I ask because I need to purchase new tires soon and there are very few options for my 250 to have the same brand and current tire size (width) on both front and rear. I do not want to run with different brands but if I have to, I guess I will (but that would be an absolute last resort option). I have yet to call cycle werkz to see what they recommend and what they have in stock or how long it would take to get them in but I will once I research more (I don't want to be THAT dumbass girl on the other end that has no clue what they are talking about). Just curious what you guys have done and whether you like it or not or would or would not recommend it.

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Re: Tire width

Post by DarcShadow » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:44 pm

Going with different brands would be less of an impact then going with a different size. I've had different brands several times, because the rear wears out twice as fast as the front I'll replace it with what ever I want to try and not worry about matching.

I did run a 160 on my rim which is designed for a 180. It turned in a bit faster, but nothing too noticable. The big thing on going to a different size is making sure that the rim will support the tire. running a 160 like I did, will work, but it's pushing the limits of what the rim will allow and CycleWerkz wouldn't even mount it for me because it's harder to get things to bead to seal properly.
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Re: Tire width

Post by Firewa11 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:54 pm

Going to a wider tire gives you a heavier turn-in, but more cornering grip, with less straightline speed (wider tires flatten out the curve profile, so you have a little more rubber on the road, so more friction). Thinner tires give you an easier turn-in, less apex speed (grip), but more straightline speed (think road bike bicycle tire vs. mountain bike tire).

I went from a 180 to a 190 on the Gixxer for the purpose of having more corner grip / contact. More important with a bigger engine, that's why most 600's and 750's run 180's, and 1000's run 190's. And Ninjas used to run 120's, so looks like they increased the tire size to 130 (makes sense, since the newer models put out more HP that previous years).

For starting out on the track, I would recommend going up a size to a 140 (if you have the clearance) instead of going down a size.
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Re: Tire width

Post by Blizzard_1708 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:58 pm

cyclewerkz might not have a tire in stock for you, but it only takes them a day to get tires in (if you order early enough to make the shipment).

I have stuck with the manufacturer size tire, but I have more options than you do.

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Re: Tire width

Post by DarcShadow » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:01 pm

But with a wider tire on a small rim you're going to have more sidewall and hince more roll when leaned over.

Also, would a wider tire on a small rim actually have more of a curve profile because you've got to much tire shoved into a smaller space. Where as smaller tires have too little rubber in a the space to they are actually flatter.

What you are saying is correct as far a tire/rim sizes but I think it's backwards for just changing tire sizes on not the rim.

I'd say go with what ever tire size the bike/rim came with.
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Re: Tire width

Post by Telomere » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:35 pm

The front is 110/70-17 and the rear is 130/70-17. I was looking into the Dunlop GT501 but I can not find them in the size for my front tire so does that mean, they are not made in that size or those online stores don't offer them in that size (I guess I would have to call cyclewerkz to ask)? Pirelli offers sport demons for both front and rear. I found a forum (strictly 250 owners) where some of the owners talk about changing the size but wouldn't change the rear any wider than 140 because of the tire rolling over the rim and not to go higher than 80 because I would have to raise the fender (for the front). I have no interest in making my tires higher!!

Some of the owners of these 250's also run different tire brands. They run the Dunlop GT501 on the rear and the Metzler laser tech on the front (I prefer not to run different brands). I want to try to the Dunlops but again, I can't find a front online so I don't know if they are even made for 110/70-17 (even on their website, they are not listed) :((

I am interested in trying the Pirelli sport demons but everyone that I have found that have owned them and posted what mileage they get out of them, say they last about 3K-4K (I currently have almost 9500K on these tires). I just want to :-o because this is frustrating. I don't know what to do. I guess I will need to either call the big guys or run down there and get their professional opinion.

Thanks for the input guys!!

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Re: Tire width

Post by Rhino » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:41 pm

Pirelli Sport Demons seem to be the performance tire of choice.

Keep in mind, the stickier your tire is, the faster it wears out. You aren't going to find serious dual-compound tires for your 250, so you pretty much need to decide whether you care more about tire life or grip.

Given that you have a track day coming up, I'd buy the Pirellis if I were you, so you know you have a nice grippy tire for the track. See how long it lasts with you riding, then decide if you want to buy another set or switch to something else.

Edit: Here you go:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_tire_ ... the_250%3F" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Tire width

Post by Telomere » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:47 pm

I was thinking that same thing but I don't want to have 2K miles on come track day :(( but I don't want brand spanking new tires that haven't had any time to touch the road either. I also don't want Fixxer having a heart attack because we would have replace my tires so soon after buying a new set (you know, me being a woman, I just want the most expensive stuff I see...something like what he would say). I was definitely thinking Pirelli's for my trackday, at least. I know MOS likes his pirellis too :-D

I did call cyclewerkz and they are going to do some digging around and see what they can find for her since her tire size is different than the older ones...the aspect ratio is smaller than the older models (from 80 to my 70 and the rims were 16 but now 17).

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Re: Tire width

Post by DemonDuck » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:48 pm

I helped my friend with the Katana and we went to Cyclewerkz to have a few things done. One of the things was to replace the tires. They could not get the stock tires for both front and back in the same brand with many options just like you are having problems with. She wanted to try going with something that would give her the best performance over the longer life and so didnt want to go sport touring. After talking to Dave for a little bit and letting him check the options we ended up getting a different size tire and putting the Q2's on there. The price and performance was just to nice right now to pass up. I want to say on your bike it would be like going to a 130/65/17 on the rear.
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Re: Tire width

Post by DarcShadow » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:48 pm

Don't worry about different brands. The big reason people say not to run different is that typically the tires are matched so that the profile of both work well together. If several people say they run the GT501 and the laser tech, then that must be a profile combination that works well for them.

3-4K for a 250 is on the low side yes, but that's about what you get from the 600 and up super sports. You can always get the sticker tire for the track and pull it back off for street riding. Kind of a pain, but if you have an extra rim it makes is much easier and several people do that.
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Re: Tire width

Post by Telomere » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:59 pm

I was thinking of doing that but that would mean buying 2 new rims (not a big deal for me but I would have to check with my finance manager to see if I have the funds for that). Dave called me back and said he CAN get the 501's for both front and rear and total out the door will be 288.27, whereas the sport demons out the door will be around 302. I don't know if I can convince my finance manager of the upside to buying new rims and buying 2 separate tires (one for track and one for road). I think I have a lot of convincing to do (especially since the car needs shocks and his truck needs maintenance).

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Re: Tire width

Post by DemonDuck » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:05 pm

But the good side to you trying to convince him of whatever you need is you are woman.... you have built in :boobs2: to help you get stuff. Before you go the route of 2 sets of tires and rims you might want to give the sticky tires a shot and see how fast they wear out. I get almost 10k miles out of almost every tire I have gotten so far and im a big guy on a big bike. I also wear it almost completely out though so :Shrug: .
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Re: Tire width

Post by Telomere » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:14 pm

I know that the second set of rims won't happen anytime soon. But I think it will be worth investing in since I plan on keeping her and either "selling" it to my 14 year old years down the road OR making her a dedicated track bike when and if I upgrade to a 600. She is a fun little machine to ride and I can't wait until I am ready to take her out on the MSRC 1.3 CCW and see how I do.

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Re: Tire width

Post by Dragonfly » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:17 pm

Something to think about, on my old 250, I ran front tires on both the front and rear. The brands that are offered in the own sizes are very limited. I ran Avons, a 110 front for the front and a 130 front for the rear. They were sticky and very confidence inspiring. You could probably find something in the same brand that will work very well for you.
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Re: Tire width

Post by U-Turn » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:33 pm

Buy the sticker tires - track day coming up. 1000 miles break-in - run em on the track with good confidence that the tires will-stick. Then, with the onset of winter 2 things, 1-not riding as much, it's cold outside and 2-stickier tires warm-up quicker giving you better grip on the cold days you do ride. And over the winter keep looking for a good deal on rims.
I know a few clubmembers do buy different tires for the winter season due to better warm-up / stickyness.
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Re: Tire width

Post by U-Turn » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:35 pm

Dragonfly wrote:Something to think about, on my old 250, I ran front tires on both the front and rear. The brands that are offered in the own sizes are very limited. I ran Avons, a 110 front for the front and a 130 front for the rear. They were sticky and very confidence inspiring. You could probably find something in the same brand that will work very well for you.
Interesting - they say front tires are stronger than rear and rear are stickier (trying to control power).
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Re: Tire width

Post by Telomere » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:39 pm

:HeadScratch: Interesting approach to tires from both of your perspectives. Obviously, neither have crossed my mind but now that it is NEW info for me to process I will definitely keep both in mind. :-D

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Re: Tire width

Post by DemonDuck » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:45 pm

I personally would like to find a set of extra rims to keep for my bike for the race track if I ever go enough. And another extra rear so I can keep a different sprocket and tire for the drag strip.
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Re: Tire width

Post by Telomere » Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

I just ordered myself some Pirelli sport demons. I hope I do not regret purchasing these. :)

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Re: Tire width

Post by Rhino » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:04 pm

How can you regret purchasing tires? I mean unless you buy 20 sets and don't use half of them. :D

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Re: Tire width

Post by Telomere » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:09 pm

I mean, I hope they work out well, and don't cause me to pucker my ass too many times because they are slick like ice. I doubt they will be...I was just saying. GEEEEZZZ man!!!!

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Re: Tire width

Post by Rhino » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:28 pm

Telomere wrote:I mean, I hope they work out well, and don't cause me to pucker my ass too many times because they are slick like ice. I doubt they will be...I was just saying. GEEEEZZZ man!!!!
Nah, that has nothing to do with tires and everything to do with how you ride. I've had some talks with Snail about this--even the stickiest tires can be pushed until they slip. The trick isn't to get tires that don't slip, it's knowing what to do when your tires slip.

Edit: I'm actually wanting to spend some time on dirt bikes for this very reason. Practice in very low traction situations so I build up the right instincts for when street tires get squirrely.

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Re: Tire width

Post by Firewa11 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:37 pm

It's a lot like the MSF course tries to teach, regarding even if you lock up the back tire keep the front pointed where you want to go. There are two types of slip. Grip slip, and power slip. Power slip is too much power to the rear tire. Easily overcome... Grip slip, well, it's a little harder to explain this one, but it's where your rear tire momentarily slips. Almost always this is either to great a lean angle, rough patch in corner (causing tire to bounce), surface condition of the track, or tire condition (too many heat cycles, bald, hard tires not hot enough, etc.).

When ECR first opened, they used a terrible paint to mark the yellow pit-out line. And it was right in the line to take the corner. That corner was unnerving to take, as you would feel the rear tire walk a bit on that paint line. Nothing drastic, just enough to let you know it was there, and make your heart skip a beat.

I wouldn't worry about your tires Telomere, those are good tires for your bike, and you'll be fine!
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Re: Tire width

Post by Telomere » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:41 pm

We will probably be doing that once we get a dirt bike (it will be for my oldest) which won't be until around xmas. Hopefully, learning how to handle a dirt bike (on dirt and gravel) will help with road riding situations.

And I know it is all about how I ride. The tires I have on the bike now have never given me any problems. They don't slip or slid or any of that crap (you know how Fixxer complained of those tires he used to have sliding all the time...these have never done that). I have used too much rear brake and caused the rear end to slid out on me but I never freaked out (it was like an ok, no big deal moment). I have actually done that a lot but not on purpose.

Firewall, it is that grip/slip you mentioned that I have yet to really experience (if you want to count tar snakes) but at least I get to scrub the tires in before track day (as Fixxer said). They will be on my bike by the end of next week, so I will probably be out next weekend "scrubbing" them in :D

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Re: Tire width

Post by Rhino » Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:47 pm

Remember, heat cycling your tires is WAY more important than "scrubbing them in". You can rough up your tires just weaving down the street. Getting them to full stickiness requires a few heat cycles.

When I put the Pilot Powers on my ZX, I basically did a little weaving, then did some cycles of accelerate / brake / accelerate / brake. Then (and this is important), I got off the bike for 20 minutes to let the tires cool back down. Then back on with the accelerate / brake / accelerate / brake with some highway riding thrown in.

I did that I think 3 times, then took the bike to the track. Total riding time was maybe 45 minutes, with a couple 20-minute cool-downs thrown in. I know my total "scrub in" time was less than 2 hours, and the tires never once slipped on me.