Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

User avatar
WillK675
Posts: 8511
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by WillK675 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:51 pm

DarcShadow wrote:true, but you can still pick it up. ha!

The kick stand trick makes it easier, but once you get a bike up past a certin point you should be able to hold it while you turn around and throw a leg over it.
Should. But if not, getting it picked up and riding out, is better than being stuck and stranded.
-Will
'07 Daytona 675
'09 Versys 650
'14 CB500
'20 MB200
When it comes to addiction Motorcycles are worse than crack.
"Brake fade is God's way of telling you to quit squeezing the coward lever and carry more corner speed, you pussy." - Rhino

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Rhino » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:06 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:you don't have to be extra dumb to over rev, lots of racers downshift to a gear below what would over rev the engine for turns, I've done this myself a few times - on purpose, only possible with a slipper or a two stroke. Lets you get everything done while upright isntead of having to wait for your revs to drop low enough to get in the gear you want or ride the clutch until your slow enough to feed it out.
:HeadScratch:

Um...I don't even know what to do with that. When you're downshifting you aren't waiting for your revs to *drop*, you're trying to *raise* them. Did you mean that you don't have to wait for your bike to be going slow enough that you don't over-rev it? I can see the advantage of banging out your downshifts early, but all you're doing by working your slipper clutch is letting yourself release the clutch too early. You're basically using technology to compensate for really bad technique. Either stagger your downshifts so you're always in the right gear as you slow (the "right" way to do it), or bang out all your downshifts but hold the clutch in until you're going slow enough (not optimal, but some guys do it this way). Banging out downshifts, dumping the clutch, and letting your slipper clutch worry about it is just...wrong.
fixxervi6 wrote:I dunno why traction control was invented, I thought Iread someplace that it was there to help reduce high sides. I don't see how it was invented to allow harder drive outs, GP guys were spinning up the rear wheel doing power slides on exits before any kind of traction control was invented.
Exactly. Power slides on exits are not necessarily fast. Granted, some racers have a "back it in" approach where they steer with the rear, dirt bike style. But that's not provably faster--you don't see everybody doing it that way. The best drive, regardless of style, is to put down exactly as much power as possible without washing out the rear and no more. That's what traction control does better than any racer. And I do mean *any* racer--GP riders lap times go up when they use appropriately-tuned TC. If the computer does it better than Rossi, it certainly does it better than you.

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Rhino » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:10 pm

Telomere wrote:
DarcShadow wrote:On picking up a bike, there is a trick to it and with some pratice, even the weakest person can get any bike back up on two wheels. :)
I saw a video that was made to "teach" others how to pick up their bike if they were alone. It was done by some woman. I seriously do not plan on practicing on picking up my bike :D Now, if someone wants to lend their bike for practice, that is different story and I am game!!!
If you're serious, I'll put my Versys down on the rashed bag if you want to practice.

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by fixxervi6 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:11 pm

Rhino wrote:
fixxervi6 wrote:you don't have to be extra dumb to over rev, lots of racers downshift to a gear below what would over rev the engine for turns, I've done this myself a few times - on purpose, only possible with a slipper or a two stroke. Lets you get everything done while upright isntead of having to wait for your revs to drop low enough to get in the gear you want or ride the clutch until your slow enough to feed it out.
:HeadScratch:

Um...I don't even know what to do with that. When you're downshifting you aren't waiting for your revs to *drop*, you're trying to *raise* them. Did you mean that you don't have to wait for your bike to be going slow enough that you don't over-rev it? I can see the advantage of banging out your downshifts early, but all you're doing by working your slipper clutch is letting yourself release the clutch too early. You're basically using technology to compensate for really bad technique. Either stagger your downshifts so you're always in the right gear as you slow (the "right" way to do it), or bang out all your downshifts but hold the clutch in until you're going slow enough (not optimal, but some guys do it this way). Banging out downshifts, dumping the clutch, and letting your slipper clutch worry about it is just...wrong.
fixxervi6 wrote:I dunno why traction control was invented, I thought Iread someplace that it was there to help reduce high sides. I don't see how it was invented to allow harder drive outs, GP guys were spinning up the rear wheel doing power slides on exits before any kind of traction control was invented.
Exactly. Power slides on exits are not necessarily fast. Granted, some racers have a "back it in" approach where they steer with the rear, dirt bike style. But that's not provably faster--you don't see everybody doing it that way. The best drive, regardless of style, is to put down exactly as much power as possible without washing out the rear and no more. That's what traction control does better than any racer. And I do mean *any* racer--GP riders lap times go up when they use appropriately-tuned TC. If the computer does it better than Rossi, it certainly does it better than you.
You should start teaching racing, because apparently there are a lot of racers that are just...doing it wrong.

For the TC see the video in my other post
K1600

User avatar
DarcShadow
Club Staff/Web Master
Club Staff/Web Master
Posts: 15130
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:20 pm
Riding Style: Advanced Track Rider
Achievement count: 45
Location: Azle, TX
Contact:

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by DarcShadow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:32 pm

I think, wrong as in, it's the lazy, horrible on equipment kind of wrong.

Technology really has changed racing, and in some cases slowed it down because the drivers use the technology rather than the seat of their pants. A few years ago a mag or tv show, forget which, took a current winning auto racer, and an older winning racer. Both amazing drivers and among the best of their time. They they loaded the car down with sensors and let each one have a go. The younger guy turned some great laps and the sensors showed that he was pushing the car right to it's limit nearly 100% of the time. However, the older guy, turned slightly faster lap times even though he was not pushing the car to it's limit 100% of the time. He had the experence to push the car past it's limits in some points and then didn't have to push it as hard at other points. This is something that technology wouldn't allow because it says, nope you've hit the limit, you can't do that anymore.
I Refuse to Tiptoe Through Life...Only to Arrive Safely at Death.
Image
Attack Life! It's gonna kill you anyway.

http://www.facebook.com/DSDecals

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Rhino » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:40 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:You should start teaching racing, because apparently there are a lot of racers that are just...doing it wrong.
Could be, or maybe you only think you know what the racers are doing. :D

I'll be a RiderCoach first, I need more track time before I teach that too. :)
DarcShadow wrote:I think, wrong as in, it's the lazy, horrible on equipment kind of wrong.
What he said.

My truck has ABS, but I don't just mash the brake pedal to the floor every time I want to stop.

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by fixxervi6 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:46 pm

DarcShadow wrote:I think, wrong as in, it's the lazy, horrible on equipment kind of wrong.

Technology really has changed racing, and in some cases slowed it down because the drivers use the technology rather than the seat of their pants. A few years ago a mag or tv show, forget which, took a current winning auto racer, and an older winning racer. Both amazing drivers and among the best of their time. They they loaded the car down with sensors and let each one have a go. The younger guy turned some great laps and the sensors showed that he was pushing the car right to it's limit nearly 100% of the time. However, the older guy, turned slightly faster lap times even though he was not pushing the car to it's limit 100% of the time. He had the experence to push the car past it's limits in some points and then didn't have to push it as hard at other points. This is something that technology wouldn't allow because it says, nope you've hit the limit, you can't do that anymore.
I get what your saying about the sensors and technology deal, but it its what it is, faster and faster by whatever means you can make it happen, evolve and compete if your in it to win it.

they don't run and abuse slippers because its lazy, thats what was required for 4 strokes to hold ground with the two strokers.

The other article I talked about but have not found again yet, talked about how two stroke racers were destroying bikes when they moved them to 4 strokers because of the over reving by doing the - apparently lazy - downshifting that they were used to doing on their 2 strokes. What they were used to doing on the 2 strokes did not damage them, it won them races, and gave them an advatage over 4 strokes that were unable to do the same thing because of engine braking and destroying valve trains.

Remember, two strokes in GP came first, thats how they did it, that is the way it was done, and it was obviously the advantage to do it since they had to "fix" that problem in the 4 strokes because they couldn't compete due to not being able to, well, "be lazy" with their shifting.

Watch on board telemtry from a lot of races, you'll see a great number of times people kicking down into 1st and 2nd gear with the speeds still way up in the 140's etc, they are not doing it to be lazy.
K1600

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Rhino » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:51 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:Watch on board telemtry from a lot of races, you'll see a great number of times people kicking down into 1st and 2nd gear with the speeds still way up in the 140's etc, they are not doing it to be lazy.
Are they letting the clutch out too, or are they just doing it so they can get their foot back on the peg?

User avatar
DarcShadow
Club Staff/Web Master
Club Staff/Web Master
Posts: 15130
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:20 pm
Riding Style: Advanced Track Rider
Achievement count: 45
Location: Azle, TX
Contact:

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by DarcShadow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:54 pm

The 2 strokers yeah, but the 4 strokers are being lazy in not learning the correct way to operate their machine so they whine to the engineers to create a way for them to ride the bike the way they want, not the way the machine wants.

This 2vs4 gets into another part of racing I hate. Same with V-twin vs inline 4. V-twins are givin significally more displacemnet in order to say competiteve with the 4. To me this clearly shows that the twin in an inferior technology so why should the rules change to allow bad tech to continue to compete? Or the auto world, the Viper dominated it's class when it first started race till they regulated it out of competition. That's like saying since this one legged guy wants to run the 100 meter dash all you guys with two legs have to tie them together.
I Refuse to Tiptoe Through Life...Only to Arrive Safely at Death.
Image
Attack Life! It's gonna kill you anyway.

http://www.facebook.com/DSDecals

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by fixxervi6 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:56 pm

Rhino wrote:
fixxervi6 wrote:Watch on board telemtry from a lot of races, you'll see a great number of times people kicking down into 1st and 2nd gear with the speeds still way up in the 140's etc, they are not doing it to be lazy.
Are they letting the clutch out too, or are they just doing it so they can get their foot back on the peg?
watch the tac with it, they are either doing one fine ass job of feathering the clutch or they are relying on the slipper to do its job. Of course I have no hard evidence of either.

The best thing I can do is find the article I read about the crossover to four stroke racing, its a bitch to find because I can't just google slipper clutch because thats not what it was about. It talked about slippers because it was a major breakthrough in getting 4 stroke up to par to compete
K1600

Telomere
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 10014
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:35 pm
Achievement count: 22
Location: Fort Worth/ Watauga

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Telomere » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:06 pm

Rhino wrote:If you're serious, I'll put my Versys down on the rashed bag if you want to practice.
Seriously? That would be...cool of you, I think :HeadScratch:

When I dropped my bike, Fixxer picked it up for me :) I didn't even try. It was on the incline of my driveway diagonally (which contributed to me dropping it) and I was afraid that I would drop it to the other side if I tried to pick it up. I imagined it rolling out into the street because I would pick it up and drop it on the other side (not that it was rolling over or anything...that is just what went through my head for a split second).

User avatar
milesmiles
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13622
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:40 pm
Riding Style: Advanced Track Rider
Achievement count: 27
Location: Denton

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by milesmiles » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:24 pm

When i dropped my yammie i picked it up and nearly had it topple over the otherside lol.
The world needs Miles
Sometimes you gotta draw the line, but that doesn't mean it can't be squiggly-miles
"it's not a stupid dirt bike, it's a supermoto!"-miles

User avatar
DarcShadow
Club Staff/Web Master
Club Staff/Web Master
Posts: 15130
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:20 pm
Riding Style: Advanced Track Rider
Achievement count: 45
Location: Azle, TX
Contact:

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by DarcShadow » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:25 pm

Buddy did that. He was so mad at himself he pratically threw it onto the other side he picked it up so fast.
I Refuse to Tiptoe Through Life...Only to Arrive Safely at Death.
Image
Attack Life! It's gonna kill you anyway.

http://www.facebook.com/DSDecals

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Rhino » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:26 pm

Yeah, step 1 of picking up a downed bike is to take a deep breath and calm down.

Step 2 is put down the kickstand if the bike is laying on its right-hand side. :D
Telomere wrote:Seriously? That would be...cool of you, I think :HeadScratch:
Sure. The Versys lays on its side case and hand guard. The only part of the bike it self that touched the ground in my crash was the corner of the fork.

User avatar
Grinner
Posts: 3885
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:06 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 25
Location: MSR-C
Contact:

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Grinner » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:51 am

Tele, if ya want, anytime you are at the house you are more than welcome to practice picking up the 650. Shes got slides and rash so its no big deal.
:D
Copper K3SV650S & K3SV1000S
Enjoy your Life...Don't Die Young Feeling Old When You Can Die Old Feeling Young!!
"Grinner is carrying the Black man-card, aka he has aquired enough man points his card is upgraded to the top teir." - fixxervi6

User avatar
Blizzard_1708
Posts: 6738
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:38 pm

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Blizzard_1708 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:33 am

I've tried picking up my bike like in the video and cant do it. I think the COG being higher on a sportie makes it harder. Tele, I'n sure george would let you practice on the 250. It would be the closest match to the weight distribution of your bike I think.

Telomere
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 10014
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:35 pm
Achievement count: 22
Location: Fort Worth/ Watauga

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Telomere » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:16 pm

Blizzard_1708 wrote:I've tried picking up my bike like in the video and cant do it. I think the COG being higher on a sportie makes it harder. Tele, I'n sure george would let you practice on the 250. It would be the closest match to the weight distribution of your bike I think.
So, how do you manage to pick your bike up then (call MOS)? FIxxer has picked my bike up at least twice (once from the wreck and once from my dropping her..I don't know if he dropped her after the wreck at all).
Grinner wrote:Tele, if ya want, anytime you are at the house you are more than welcome to practice picking up the 650. Shes got slides and rash so its no big deal.
:D
Thanks for the offer. I appreciate that you are trying to help a wimp out :D As long as you (and MOS) are ok with it, that would be awesome because I obviously need the practice and I do not have sliders and she doesn't have any rash. I have no problem learning with my bike but I prefer not to give her any rash since she doesn't have any. Maybe I need to invest in some nice, thick mats too. I can see it now, me dropping this bike or a bigger one and having to call Fixxer to come help me out :D

User avatar
DarcShadow
Club Staff/Web Master
Club Staff/Web Master
Posts: 15130
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:20 pm
Riding Style: Advanced Track Rider
Achievement count: 45
Location: Azle, TX
Contact:

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by DarcShadow » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:52 pm

Blizzard_1708 wrote:I've tried picking up my bike like in the video and cant do it. I think the COG being higher on a sportie makes it harder. Tele, I'n sure george would let you practice on the 250. It would be the closest match to the weight distribution of your bike I think.
good point, that would have a pretty big impact on how well this technique works. Maybe we could let her try and pick up the valk. :-)
I Refuse to Tiptoe Through Life...Only to Arrive Safely at Death.
Image
Attack Life! It's gonna kill you anyway.

http://www.facebook.com/DSDecals

Jenson
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:57 pm
Location: downtown FTW

Re: Track 250... errr Telomere 250 mods :-)

Post by Jenson » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:27 pm

Blizzard_1708 wrote:I thought 250s didnt make great track bikes because after about a year or two of it you end up blowing the motor out because of all the stresses. 250 engines just arent designed to handle lots of track time. This was my impression from Kegan and George talking about turning their 250s into track bikes.
I'd have to disagree. Eric at cycle gear had one that he rode track with for years with no problems. The 250s are pretty bullet proof. Stay on top of the oil changes and valves and they will wind out for quite some time. I put over 22k on mine, nearly All of those miles at or a lil above or below redline. I kept waiting for the wizz bang damnit moment, but it never came. Ran great when I sold it too. I think as long as you don't take it to south texas two up, into a headwind, with a passenger, at redline in 5th gear, she'll be fine. Just my 2c. I could be wrong.
"Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That's why God created fast motorcycles, bubba." --Hunter S. Thompson
'02 F4i- Behold the awesome power of zip-ties.