Lean Angle and knees

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Lean Angle and knees

Post by fixxervi6 » Sun May 22, 2011 11:40 pm

Ok so at that track I got all the way over and scraped a knee puck, thats cool and all, but...

The bike felt like it had a lot more in it left, it was planted very solid at no point did it feel like I was at the edge of anything, but I checked my tires and they are all the way out to the edge, so I have to assume I was at the edge of my grip or max lean angle.

So tires, different tires have different max lean angles, so rubbing some knee won't always mean you are at max lean angle, correct? I expected to hear my bike talking to me saying buddy your pushing it on grip THEN my knee touching but it felt very solid and stable, one time I wanted to increase my lean angle but my knee was already down so I rode it out.

What would have happened if I lifted my knee a little more and just went more, does that depend on the tire? Looking at the shape of the tire I'm assuming I could have leaned more, the contact patch would have just gotten smaller, so as stable as it felt, I'm gonna guess that there was a little more left in it.

So of course I know I could have carried a lot more speed with a better line etc but something still smells funny, I can't image that was all she had to give. So is the idea you feel a scrape so you go ok I'm getting close then you go a little more until the bike starts talking to you? Or do you feel a scrape and you go thats it I'm maxed out I have to watch it now.

The latter doesn't make sense to me, if different tires have different lean angles then you'd have to match your body posistion to the tire such that you touched down when you reach the max of a particular tire.

Or is it that you use it as a feeler and memorize leg posistion in reference to angle?

I see the motoGP guys doing regular knee down stuff looks like normal lean angle, then I see other pictures of some physics breaking stuff where they have almost 0 hang off and they are scraping everything but helmet they are leaned over so far, if the machine and tires are capable of performing such an act, why stick your knee down there to feel your lean angle, just go for elbows at that point.

So I guess I'm confused, I expected to "feel" like I was pushing the edge whenever I touched down, I didn't feel like I was at the edge of anything (except the track on one wide turn :) ). So in terms of lean angle, is that it, or do I lift my leg and lean more till it "feels" like I'm at the edge of my grip? I could easily left my knee and lean it over more but if I do does that mean high chance of sliding out?
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Firewa11 » Mon May 23, 2011 7:15 am

Tires and suspension (and rider skill) determine the lean angle. Each tire manufacturer has "max lean angle" specs. I don't recall off the top of my head what a 2CT has, but thinking it's around 50 degrees. As you move up into race tires and such, lean angles increase to 55-60 degrees. Suspension is very important when you're getting to the very edge as well. Improperly setup suspension can cause your tires to bounce while you're leaned over on a traction patch the size of a couple of postage stamps.

As far as getting off the bike, the most important purpose it serves is to weight the peg and lower your center of gravity, and allow you to take a turn at higher speed with less lean angle. The goal is not to get your knee down, elbow down, anything of the sort. The goal is to have your body in the right position... knee on the ground should be secondary. You can make the same turn with your knee on the ground and not on the ground if your body position is right, just by tucking your knee in or out. Using it more like a curb feeler. Which, is not far off, you never want to have so much weight on your knee you can't easily lift off the track, such as when taking a tight corner and your knee hitting curbing or rumble strips (which can rip you right off the bike).

Practice will determine where your limits are. And when you're on the very edge, it's a fine balance between finding the limits of you, your bike, and your tires. Finding those limits and exceeding them usually results in a heart-stopping situation of either getting a little slip, enough to tell you back off, or the tires washing out and you and the bike go sliding down the track. Or worse, the tires start slipping and then suddenly grab, resulting in a catapulting high-side.

And as you start getting better and faster, you'll learn that each track, and each corner of each track is different, and is different even still depending on the direction you're going. You have to take into consideration surface condition, camber of the corner, temperature, tire condition, and your own condition (are you sore / tired? Did you gain or lose 5 pounds since the last track day?). Just because you were completely over leaned over 100% on the previous corner doesn't mean you can do the same on the upcoming one, could be some bumps right in the middle of the corner that would upset the bike...

All that being said, my advice to you is to practice and S-L-O-W-L-Y progress in each corner by adding a LITTLE more speed each time. Move your braking markers out by no more than a foot each time, and as you get more practice and more experience you'll get faster, with greater lean angles. As you gain experience, you won't even be thinking about lean angles or body position as they will come naturally to you. The last thing you should think about while you're in a corner is that you could lift your knee and take the corner tighter / faster.

And when I say slowly progress, I mean just that. The fastest riders didn't get where they are today by taking large leaps. Take the corner faster by 1mph. Extend the braking marker by 1 foot. And all this was done AFTER they found the best lines to take through the track. What they show you in Ridesmart is the safest line around the track. It's not typically the race line. Practice will gain you experience!

I personally found my absolute limits at Eagle's Canyon coming up that tight right-hand uphill just before the start/finish straight. Off the bike in proper position, knee tucked in and still scraping, toe slider scraping (fully tucked in), pegs scraping, and after later examination, belly pan scraping. But, don't use that as your own gauge. That day I weighed in at 265 pounds, and that played a huge part. It also means that now getting on the track, it's going to be a new animal for me. I'm 84 pounds lighter today than that day.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon May 23, 2011 8:36 am

I've read elsewere that knee down is a result, not a goal, I can proudly say it was a result as I wasn't trying for it, it just happened...... There were a couple times where I was down but picked it back up as I was going to hit some of those rumble strip/curb areas, when I lifted my leg back up to avoid hitting them I didn't notice any difference in the way the bike handled, the only change was my body posistion felt "funny" but the bike didn't care that I picked my leg up.

Kind of like sex, if your trying too hard your not going to get it, and if you do manage to score its probably going to result in something you don't really want vs if you just let it happen, it'll happen (yes I just made that up :) )

You kind of highlighted my question without an answer, or slightly anyway.

So from what I read in your post you answered one part, knee down doesn't mean you are at the lean angle limit.

So then I would say, what the hell is the point then, then what is the functional purpose? Just fun and show? (cause it was fun, and it does look cool after all)

Is that really what its an indicator of, body posistion limit for given lean angle? Does it mean nothing more than at this angle you can no longer add more weight to the inside with your lower body?

So here would be my take then, would the following be a true statemen?t:

If your knee touches but the bike is planted firm and not talking to you, your moved at least your lower body to the inside as far as you can, at this point to add lean angle you have to lift your knee which moves the weight closer to the bike, moves the center of gravity. When increasing lean angle beyond knee touching angles tires suspension etc become even more important since you can no longer rely on adding additional weight to the inside peg at this point. If this is true, "dragging knee" isn't any of what I've read is the reason, its not maximum lean angle, its not just a feeler to see where you are at in relation to the ground (I can sort of tell that with how far my point of view is off the deck, thats why it didn't scare me I knew I was low without looking). Its nothing more than the result of the body posistion trying to capitalize on moving as much to the inside as possible, when it happens get the knee back up and listen to the bike, or grind it off to look cool :idea:

** above statement is a question not a statement, would that be a correct explination as to "WHY" its done **

I've read so much crap on the internet about it after I did it I was kind of like, what the hell is the point. I've read everything from its a feeler to gauge angle to people use it to push down and keep the bike from sliding out (I knew that was BS before but yea thats the kind of crap thats out there).
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon May 23, 2011 8:46 am

Firewa11 wrote: What they show you in Ridesmart is the safest line around the track. It's not typically the race line. Practice will gain you experience!
This what I keep hearing and even as green as I am I see it, rattle snake was all wrong, for 1 lap I turned in WAY WAY past the marker they had down because I thought it would be better and wanted to try it, while I didn't go any faster it felt like a ton less work, easier, then I went back to not doing that. They told us in the class rooms turn on the X or they would pull you off the track.

Instructor that followed me got onto me for not turning ON the X (to be honost I was trying to ignore most of them, I don't want to become dependant on them)

Does it change at level2, do they get off your back? How the hell are you suppose to learn the fastest lines if your not allowed to go for them.

I wish they didn't have those X's down there at all, hell take the cones away too (I would like brake markers tho).
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Firewa11 » Mon May 23, 2011 9:26 am

Well, to answer your question, the knee down serves multiple purposes. First, it can help you right an upset bike, by pushing back out with your leg / knee if the rear starts to talk / walk on you. It's not actually BS, I've done it, as have others out there. Second, it helps keep you in a comfortable position with all of your weight on the inside peg. Third, you can help use it as a gauge to just how far over you are. If you have the same exact body position with each corner, then how far your leg is extended can indicate how far over you are (how much more you have to go to your own limits, etc).

There's really no magic science to it. Most of what you've written up is what you've already discovered. THere are plenty of riders out there that lean off the bike but don't put a knee down. The whole reason Kenny Roberts start putting furniture sliders on his knees was so he could lean off the bike, reduce the lean angle required (and promote more speed in a corner), and have a comfy resting spot for his knee while he cornered in this new way. Before that, people stayed firmly planted in the saddle when they cornered.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Firewa11 » Mon May 23, 2011 9:28 am

As far as the X's, that must be something new, I don't know what the point of those are, other than a teaching tool. Each line is different depending on the rider. If everyone followed the same line, you wouldn't be able to pass anyone in a race except in a straight... usually most passing happens during braking or cornering.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by WillK675 » Mon May 23, 2011 9:37 am

Yes the 'X's are a new thing. I don't much like them. At ECR they were no where near the right line. However, they are there for level 1 and they are marked for the 'safe line' which isn't always the fastest line. Another thing is you can have multiple lines for a corner, dependent on the situation (late braking, passing, etc.). At ECR they did bring up the 'X's in lvl 2 but they didn't try to enforce hitting them.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Rhino » Mon May 23, 2011 10:18 am

I'm not sure the X's are such a bad thing. I noticed that some of the ones people were complaining about were actually in a really good spot to highlight certain things. Same thing with the apex cones. Like on the 1.3, on the first big left-hander after the pits, the X is further out and deeper in the turn than you might take that corner when you "sight read" it for the first time. It's there because if you late apex that first turn, it sets you up correctly for the entire section at the bottom of the hill--all the chicanes become a straight line to a left turn. If you screw it up and go into the turn early, you either have to take it too slow so you can hug the inside of the corner for too long, or you exit in a spot that makes you take the chicane as a set of turns instead of just clipping the apexes as you blast straight through.

I can't say I did a great job of always initiating a turn on the X's, but they certainly made good reference points for sight-reading the track as I was learning it. The trick is understanding what the X is setting you up for, not necessarily just making sure you touch all of them. Once you get what they're trying to tell you, you can do what firewa11 said and start moving that point a foot at a time until you find a line that works better for you, with "better" being a faster exit speed, better set-up for the next turn, whatever.

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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by DarcShadow » Mon May 23, 2011 10:26 am

Firewa11 wrote:The most important purpose it serves is to weight the peg and lower your center of gravity.
This statement has always bothered me and I finally figured out why. While it is all true, the way it's typically stated is incorrectly from a physics stand point. Weighting the peg is good, but that alone does not lower your center of gravity. For example if you shift your body and get it good and low but you're supporting yourself with your knee hanging onto the tank rather then putting weight on the beg, the center of gravity has moved and is lower. If you keep your body in the exact same possition and now put your weight on the peg and not hanging onto the tank, your center of gravity is exactly the same. The difference is where the torque is being applied. Center of gravity has nothing to do with forces, purely mass, so if the mass doesn't change, the center of gravity won't change.

As for weighting the pegs, I'm not entirely convinced that it serves much purpose, other then the fact that if your weight is on the pegs and off the seat, you can better absorb bumps and allow your suspension to do it's job easier.

On the Xs I'm not a fan of telling you you HAVE to hit them, but they're ok so long as your remember next time you go to the track they may not be there, or may be in a different spot. They can be a good learning tool to help people the first time they're on a new circuit, and can be used to point out good (safe) lines but I don't think you should be forced to take them.

As for Turn 1, Dave are you refering to the X for the turn in? I don't recall seeing an X near the apex, and the cone they had setup, in my oppion was too far around the turn. I would actually apex that turn about 2 feet away from the curbing, and a good bit sooner then the cone which set me up for a nice straight shot across the rumble strips and down the hill.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Firewa11 » Mon May 23, 2011 11:24 am

Ride on your bike, stand up, and put all your weight on one peg. If you don't counter with your bars, your bike will go the direction you're weighting the peg, no matter if you're leaning off the bike or not. Body position changes / lowers your center of gravity. Weighting the pegs puts more force on the balance of the bike (to the side you want to go), and makes it easier to initiate turn-in and stay in the turn. Notice when you're exiting a turn you have to push harder on the bars to get out of the lean, because you're still weighting the peg. When you're setting up for a turn, and you get into position / weight the peg, you typically have to use your bars to counter the balance upset, then once you turn in and are in the turn, you're in a natural 'turning' position.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by DarcShadow » Mon May 23, 2011 12:06 pm

Yes, but the reason is because in order to put weight on the peg, you have to shift your body slightly, ie moving mass and therby changing your center of gravity. If you make the exact same movement, and use something else to support you, the bike will turn exactly the same.

As for getting the bike back up, it's not so much cause you're weighting the peg, it's because you're hanging off the side and the center of mass is much harder to overcome. You'll be pushing the bars just as hard if you're weight on on the peg, or hanging off the tank.

Again, I'm not saying weighting the pegs is bad, wrong, or what ever, I just don't like the way it's generally described because it's often not physically accurate the way it's done.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Firewa11 » Mon May 23, 2011 12:49 pm

This is what happens when you get a bunch of fraking engineers in a room.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by WillK675 » Mon May 23, 2011 1:04 pm

I'm not saying the 'X's are bad. They are good for reference. I don't like the fact that they are forcing you to hit them. The 'X's are put out there before each day, thus they can be in a different spot the next time and therfore altering your line. Same thing for the cones. They make for good refrence but being forced to hit them and that's the only way to do it is obsurd.

If you hit them every time, and you go to that same track the next time, knowing your line. And your forced to hit the 'X's that have moved, you now have a different line and it doesn't feel right, and you know it's not right, but you are forced to hit it. Not a good thing IMO.

The other downfall I don't like about them, is that they are on the track. Since it is just a refrence marker, and can move, it prevents you from finding your own refrence point on the track, such as a patch, or discolored spot, etc.. And yes you can say the same thing about the cones, but they are off the track and allow you to see what is on the pavement.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by DarcShadow » Mon May 23, 2011 1:11 pm

Yeah, one guy in level 2 was complaining about the Penis Head turn. Last time he was at the track he was using a shurb as a focus point and he'd be able to ride a good line all the way around the turn. This time, the shrub was gone and he was screwing up his lines baddly. ha!
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon May 23, 2011 1:42 pm

DarcShadow wrote:
Firewa11 wrote:The most important purpose it serves is to weight the peg and lower your center of gravity.
This statement has always bothered me and I finally figured out why. While it is all true, the way it's typically stated is incorrectly from a physics stand point. Weighting the peg is good, but that alone does not lower your center of gravity.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon May 23, 2011 1:49 pm

Reasons I do not like them:

I don't like the X's and Cones becasue they allow me to run artificially hot, meaning, I may not be able to see clear through a turn for the first time, but I see an X, and I can see a cone out there, from that I can guestimate the curve and hammer harder than nomral instead of reading the curve, learning the curve, then learning the right lines. I would be going much slower initially without the X's and Cones, and to be honost I see that as a good thing.

Second, while some of the placements are fine, some clearly were NOT fine and when you tell me I have to hit them I'm gonna be a little bitch about it.

Those X's move, depending on what your doing they may or may not be correct, too fast, too slow, passing, being passed, the X's will put you on a bad path or rather not the best path.

If they never moved and they didn't tell you that you have to turn on the X's, they would be great, but as it stands they are an artifiical boost to my speed, and a decrease in learning to read the curves, give a man a fish, teach a man to fish, teach a man to pray for fish kind of thing.

I would much rather be slower and learn it for myself than have them throw those out there.

Things I like about the X's

Makes me artificially faster :)

Great reference point for that day even if I don't like their placement.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by DarcShadow » Mon May 23, 2011 1:58 pm

When I did the Keith Code school, I remember they put a few xs on the track, but not many, and only really used them to mark "unusual" points of a turn. I remember they had one on Wagon Wheel, kind of in the middle of no where, but that is where you really wanted to be even though you naturally wanted to make the turn bigger and drift out closer to the edge. If you did that though it'd screw you up for the next turn and you'd either run off the track, or be forced to slow way down. That's the only x I really remember, and it was a good one because it was one turn were you really had to force yourself to remeber the line rather then do what you want to do naturally.

The big thing that was different about this X vs the ones RS has started putting down, is the X was not a turn in point, a braking point, or an apex, it was just a marker that if you lined up everything correctly coming into the turn, and was taking the correct line out, you're run over the x with out trying and when you didn't run over it, you would notice it out of the corner of your eye and know you made a sligth mistake. The other thing, the X was a light green so it didn't jump out at you like the bright orange Xs do.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Firewa11 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:10 pm

I'm really suprised RS is putting out X's like that. I mean, I can understand from a training tool, but doing something like that gets riders used to those. And like everyone's saying, they change. My braking markers were always unmovable objects. Like, coming down the finish line straight after big bend, my braking marker would be to count a second or two after crossing the line. Same with most of my others. And as far as my lines to hit, well, honestly that was just natural to me. I didn't really have visual cue markers for "in the turn" or corner entry / exit points.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Rhino » Mon May 23, 2011 2:28 pm

DarcShadow wrote:As for Turn 1, Dave are you refering to the X for the turn in? I don't recall seeing an X near the apex, and the cone they had setup, in my oppion was too far around the turn. I would actually apex that turn about 2 feet away from the curbing, and a good bit sooner then the cone which set me up for a nice straight shot across the rumble strips and down the hill.
Yeah, the X on turn-in. I was apexing near the cone but not right on the rumble strip, a couple feet out and maybe 5 feet behind the cone. Maybe it's a little different at higher speeds, but it certainly had the same effect for me--later turn-in and apex set me up for a straight shot across the rumble strips. I "fell for the turn" a couple times and turned in early, and it made me ride the S as an S instead of as a straight line.

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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Blizzard_1708 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:51 pm

this is all feedback that should be given to Dave.

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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by shilka99 » Mon May 23, 2011 8:55 pm

One step ahead of you Blizz. If you are talking about Dave W that is.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Rhino » Mon May 23, 2011 10:00 pm

You know, while we're talking about the X's, I think an exit point reference might be handy as well, something to let you know whether you pulled off the turn correctly. At least for my newbie brain I think it would be helpful.

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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by DarcShadow » Tue May 24, 2011 7:30 am

A cone works well for that. I like brake markers for the entrance, maybe a cone at the apex, and another at the exit and if the apex point is actually a bit away from the curb an x marking it would be ok, but that's not typically the case, usually the apex is as close to the curb as you can get.
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by fixxervi6 » Tue May 24, 2011 8:11 am

I do like brake markers and I do use the cones, I tried to ignore some of the X's on purpose
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Re: Lean Angle and knees

Post by Firewa11 » Tue May 24, 2011 9:00 am

Cones are okay, but as time goes on you'll see cones get reset because someone clipped one, or wind blew them over, etc. So when they get set back up, they can move by several feet. So you might be out doing a session, get used to nailing and railing that corner using that cone as an indicator of your turn-in point. Then it gets moved, you turn in late, go wide, and off the track.

When I was taught and later instructed at RS, I told my students to use cones as a reference, but to learn the track and find different, stationary braking markers. Some areas of the track have tar stripes, seams, etc, or hard-fixed options (point, curbing, cornerworker stands, etc). Use those as those typically never move. Then for the first session of the day, identify your markers again to make sure they are all there, if not, find new ones. Sometimes it's as simple as "turn in a foot past the outside seam line, right before that splotch of tar", or "count of X after passing Y".

Obviously whatever works, and I'll admit that for the first few track days I attended I used cones. Until I got really good using those cones, and the next track day I went to, half the cones were missing, and the exit points and braking markers and such were all different, until I realized I was going into a corner way too hot and with some serious "OH FRAK"ing, had to brake well into the turn. What I use cones for now, is simply visual ques of not where I'm supposed to be, but rather where I'm supposed to be in relation to the cone. As I'm in a corner, I might see I'm clipping the apex 5 feet behind and 2 feet out from the apex cone. Then I use that to try and hit the same line every time I go around that corner, to be consistent each time, and as lap times improve, try things like diving in deeper, etc.

To each their own, however. If something works for you, then I say go for it. All I can offer is my experience, take it or leave it :-)
"Life may begin at 30, but it doesn't get real interesting until about 150."
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