Throttle control question

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fixxervi6
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Throttle control question

Post by fixxervi6 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:38 pm

I haven't used first gear much at the track, there is a reason for it.

The difference between engine brake and massive power output is about 1/16" of an inch of a throttle turn, you BARELY move it and WOOM sudden power rush, its either off or layin out the ponies there is no in between, no smooth transistion of the throttle coming on.

In second gear it doesn't have the abrupt change nearly as bad, so I use it most of the time.

My fear with first gear is, when I brake, lay it over, transision from brake to throttle roll on while leaned over the abrupt change may upset the bike because its sudden no matter how smooth or slow you try to be, its like an on off switch.

My last track day I was behind someone I couldn't take any more of so I put it in first, when I pulled out of the turn I pulled a power wheelie and blew by them (I screwed the rest of the drive up and she went by me, but still, I was like WOOOOWWW DAMN) so I wanna use first to drive out from now on.

So what is it, don't worry about it, its not enough to upset the bike? Is it a suzuki thing? what about using a lil rear brake to smooth out the sudden power on? (don't like the idea of that but I dunno the answer).

I gotta figure this out, going INTO the turn in first with throttle on is fine I just stay on it all the way through so there is no issue, the problem is when I'm on the brakes going into the turn, and the transistion from brake to throttle, THAT is what gives me the willies. When I do it in second I can roll the power on smooth, maybe because the ECU delivers it smoother in second or becuase my RPM is low enough the power is just not there to jerk the bike around.

I've never pushed a bike as hard as I've pushed this one so I don't know if this is just the way this one is or if they are all like this. The 250 doesn't have enough shit in its pants for me to feel this on that thing, jerk that throttle all over and its still smooth :-)

so is it me, suzuki, my bike, is it just mental and everything will be ok?
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by DarcShadow » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:16 pm

Just learn to take the turn faster and use 2nd.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by fixxervi6 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:41 pm

DarcShadow wrote:Just learn to take the turn faster and use 2nd.
I can run 1st up past 80mph, thats where the ponies are at, does your bike act the same in 1st?
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Dragonfly » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:42 pm

DarcShadow wrote:Just learn to take the turn faster and use 2nd.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Dragonfly » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:32 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:
My last track day I was behind someone I couldn't take any more of so I put it in first, when I pulled out of the turn I pulled a power wheelie and blew by them (I screwed the rest of the drive up and she went by me, but still, I was like WOOOOWWW DAMN) so I wanna use first to drive out from now on.
Power wheelies are common in low gears with aggressive throttle input. If you want to avoid them? I suggest you find a different place to pass, instead of corner exits. Try passing on straight aways or corner entry. Whatever You do, don't use your rear brake, its too easy to lock it up. Just my .02
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by DarcShadow » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:34 am

yeah, it's not hard to wheelie out of a turn if you're in 1st and I'm not sure what my top end in first is, probably around 60 but there's not really any turns on any of the tracks I've done where I've felt the need to drop to 1st. If you can't get around someone and feel you have to go to first to out drive them you need to work more on your passing stratagy. Hang back a bit further from them going into the turn so that you can carry more speed through the turn and gradually increase power all the way through the turn and get a good drive out. If done right even a 600 can pass a good rider on a liter and hold them off for the entire front straight at on the 1.7 at cression.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Firewa11 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:21 am

When I do track days, and when I raced on my 750, I never used 1st gear. The difference in pull and power between smooth transition wasn't enough to justify it. 1st gear is incredibly squirrely, especially when you hit between 7500 and 8500 rpm. The pull flattens out for a bit, then there's a sudden jump up in power that is very easy to bite you. With 2nd gear, it's much smoother and not as squirrely, but you can still bring the front wheel up while leaned over in 2nd gear. I've done it plenty of times on the track.

And just like Darc said, the best place to pass is holding back a hair so you can get a better drive on the corner and pull past them as you both exit the corner. That's the safest, and easiest way to pass. The second, is out-braking, but that requires quite a bit more skill and practice, and usually requires a bit of trail braking to bleed off some of the speed, as most of the time doing this brings you into the corner hot. It also requires you to be passing folks that hold their lines. So I wouldn't start messing with this until level 2+.

If you check with a lot of the racers and such, you'll find mixed views on using 1st. The top experts will use it, but they have the experience and skill to use it, and they will typically only use it on select corners. They typically also use quick shifters and a whole assortment of other enhancements they are skilled at using. The general majority of racers (including some experts) don't use it, and rather will change their sprockets to gain more pull in 2nd and 3rd gears... so 2nd gear feels more like a halfway point between 1st and 2nd gear, etc...
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:23 am

I dropped to 1st on the time I did it because they slowed to 30 mph, 2nd gear doesn't have any get up and go at that low of a speed. I don't care about the power wheelie it was just a side effect of going instant full throttle in first, I just never pulled one before like that other than like, just straight line wide open throttle situations. It just felt cool so I had to go with it :-D The drive out was hard enough that I was like hey I need to use 1st more often.

So you guys seriously don't use 1st? If you don't that makes me feel better because in second I can go from brake to throttle without the surge.

I do need to work on passing strategy, but in the mornings I can't pass and in the afternoon its outside only which I do not like, and you can't get close to them.

I'll probably give it another day at level 1 to check my right handers then stick my lil toe in the big level 2 pond, but I also want to check out some other track days like lone star or something. Anyone know their and other track organizer rules on passing?
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Firewa11 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:26 am

Not sure on the passing rules for Lonestar, I don't think they have any. They usually have 3 levels, 2 of them are for street riders (slow and fast), and the last level is for licensed racers. LSTD events are usually on the Friday before a race weekend, as LSTD and CMRA are pretty much joined at the hip. LSTD is more like an open track day than a track school like Ridesmart.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:30 am

Thats Firewall that helps me a lot, I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks 1st is squirrly.

There are only a few turns I feel confident enough to trail brake in so out braking after a long straight away is not in my toolbox yet. Funny enough I'm most comfortable with my left hand turns but I only have done trail braking into right handers, one at ECR and two at cresson. Something about staring down a curve after a long straight away doesn't jive with me mentally, but the short stretches between curves I can hammer than trail brake on from time to time, mental thing I guess. I don't try it just happens.

Looks like i need to find me some passing highlight videos :D
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Firewa11 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:41 am

Here's one from the grandstands of me racing. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This was the B-class race, so we were pretty much all on 750's (or 600's).

Better explained, at the very beginning of the video, that's me out braking the guy on the yellow bike, and using faster cornering speed than him to pull away from him as well as faster corner speed than the guy now in front of me to close the gap. When you see us come around at 0:13, I use a higher corner speed to then use that extra momentum to pull away from him (and then I did another out-brake to take him at the next corner). The next corner at 0:40 is what happens when you both take the corner at the same speed. Notice without taking the corner at a higher rate of speed, we pretty much stay exactly the same distance apart in the straight...
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:30 am

I'll check it out, but I don't think I'm at the stage of out braking someone, sometimes trail braking comes naturally on certain corners, if I try to aim for outbraking someone on the big straights at this stage of the game I'm probably gonna end up on the ground.

I'd rather work on lines, safer, needs improvement anyway, and I'll see my biggest speed increase with this.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by WillK675 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:12 am

fixxervi6 wrote:I dropped to 1st on the time I did it because they slowed to 30 mph, 2nd gear doesn't have any get up and go at that low of a speed.
You may also want to work on feathering the clutch off/on in second. Help bump up your RPMs and get more power from the lower end of 2nd. I do this all the time in rattlesnake.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:21 pm

ECR looks like it was in better condition back then.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of feathering the clutch to get the rpm up in second, if I'm going to start doing stuff like that I'll change out the sprockets or something. Thats additional wear and adds room for OOPS

but, question asked and answered.

I'll work on 2nd gear passes but that sucks because I can only do it in the afternoon and they have that 6 foot rule, some of these guys I'd like to go get on their elbow on the inside but I know, this is track day not race day :)

I'd rather work on faster lines than passing lines at this point. If my right hand turns are on and I quit coasting into the turns at the ends of the long straights I'll register level 2. I'd rather be the slow guy getting passed then having to figure out how the hell to get around someone without violating a pass rule, thats just no fun.

I coast into rattle snake because its at the end of a big straight, I hit the rev limiter in second gear then just coast from there, I do it just to avoid shifting into 3rd just to shift back out, same into little bend, then trail brake a little into buzzard and horseshoe, those straights are too short for me to hit a rev limiter and coast or shift into 3rd.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Firewa11 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:23 pm

Working on lines and getting faster on them is the best course of action. Once you get the experience under you're belt you'll find it's easy to get around slower riders at any point on the track.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Rhino » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:33 am

At Barber I got a lot of practice taking turns in 1st. For me, the key was to feather the clutch as I did the final downshift to 1st. I was never fully in gear and fully off the throttle. Basically I'd pull the clutch, kick down to 1st, blip the throttle, and feather it in. By the time I had the clutch fully released I was already off the brakes and tipping into the turn, so I was holding maintenance throttle then getting on it for the drive out.

I'm sure if I was quicker I could use 2nd like the others suggested, but the 600 *definitely* doesn't have enough oomph in 2nd gear, and I *want* the squirreliness of 1st for a good hard drive out of the corner. I got around a couple guys on the inside of the drive-out this way in turn 8, and caught some guys at the exit of turn 6 because I did the same thing going through 5.

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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Rhino » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:33 am

Blah, double-post. Stupid web timeout.

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Re: Throttle control question

Post by fixxervi6 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:58 pm

The downshift in isn't my issue, I just dump the clutch and let the slipper do its job unless I'm on the brakes so hard the rear is super light then I'll feather out a little slower.

My problem is when I trail brake in, already in first at that point, then transistion from brake to throttle.

no matter how gentle I try to be with the transistion it wants to lurch in first when I make that transistion, in second I can be gentle and go from brake to gas and it doesn't lurch or anything I can do that pretty smoothly.

If I don't trail brake its not an issue as long as I'm on a good line and I can stay in the throttle because I can take care of the brake/throttle-on lurch while the bike is standing up, I then just have to be super careful with it through the turn because 1/16" roll off is engine brake loading the front tire and 1/16" on is putting down power, its tweaky as shit, 2nd doesn't act the same at all.

Is it a major issue? no, cause I don't trail brake very often
is it annoying as all hell, yep, cause I'm scared to use 1st unless I'm hammerin down a straight.

But yea, driving out in 1st is really nice, lots of get up and go, only place I did that was in rattle snake tho, I don't think I take any other turns slow enough at cresson that 2nd doesn't pull hard on exit but a 1st pull out would have even more punch (yea I know, just go faster whatever!)

ECR would be nice to have first gear pull outs cause second was a bit low for most of those turns. Or rather I'm going too slow to use second for a real strong drive out at ECR. But then again I did one track day there and my lines sucked even worst than cresson etc.

Oh, and I'm only going to post this one time 8)
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Rhino » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:07 pm

The point is not how you're doing the downshift, it's that your clutch is a MUCH easier thing to modulate than your throttle. Kicking down a gear, dumping the clutch, and relying on your slipper means you've just taken this really fine-tuned tool right out of your toolbox. If instead you're feathering the clutch, you can use that feathering to smooth out the off/on throttle response. Instead of going from all the way closed to barely open on the throttle, you maintain a little bit of throttle (i.e. get past that first 1/16") and use the *clutch* to deliver that power smoothly to your rear wheel without upsetting the suspension.

In my brain, feathering the clutch is just another way to deliver power to the wheel. When I was doing it at the track, I didn't even think about it I just did it. Basically I was just doing the whole brake -> throttle transition while going through the turn, but the whole process actually used the brakes, throttle, and clutch all together to get a smooth transition.

Honestly, it sounds to me like if you're not doing that transition very smooth and without thinking, maybe you should hold off a bit on trail braking. It's a pretty advanced technique for exactly the reason you've seen--it's hard to manage the whole transition from braking to throttle without upsetting the suspension while leaned over. From what I've heard from Will and DarcShadow, the best way to manage the transition is by feathering both the brakes and clutch while maintaining a little bit of throttle.

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Re: Throttle control question

Post by U-Turn » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:39 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:no matter how gentle I try to be with the transistion it wants to lurch in first when I make that transistion, in second I can be gentle and go from brake to gas and it doesn't lurch or anything I can do that pretty smoothly.

is it annoying as all hell, yep, cause I'm scared to use 1st unless I'm hammerin down a straight.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by fixxervi6 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:41 pm

I don't downshift in the turn, I downshift before it so feathering it into first or going in hard on the straight doesn't make that much of a difference unless I'm hard on the brakes.

If I understand what your talking about your saying a similar thing as Will in a sense, slip the clutch in the turn to smooth out the power on, which makes sense, but doens't fix the twitchy of first gear unless I do it through the entire turn riding both the clutch and the throttle at the same time. I'm not sure I like that, its not the simple approach and it seams like it would be easy for a lot to go wrong. Getting it all done before the turn gives me less things to have to think about

Now, slipper or not, when I DO downshift in turns on the street I ease that baby out, I don't want to end up on my ass or worse.

In terms of holding off on trail braking its not something I'm actively trying to do and I tend to coast into the corners after the straights after I hit rev limit. Otherwise its just something I do, and I'd be willing to bet a lot of people here do it without realizing they are doing it, I don't consider it advanced unless you apply it for the purpose of outbraking someone to make a pass.

I'm using it to bleed off a little bit more speed for slow in fast out on short straights, hell I do it all over the place on the street just not near as aggresive as I have at cresson.

So I don't agree, I don't think its advanced, I consider it novice, now backing it in is advanced.
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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Rhino » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:15 pm

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one then. My only other advice would be ride a less twitchy bike on the track. I love my 600, she handles like a dream and doesn't bite (too hard). :D

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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Telomere » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:20 pm

Rhino wrote:Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one then. My only other advice would be ride a less twitchy bike on the track. I love my 600, she handles like a dream and doesn't bite (too hard). :D
One of these days, he will be able to take my 250 out there...of course, it will be after she gets clip-ons and rear-sets (heaven help us if he was to ride an almost upright bike at the track)!!!

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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Rhino » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:22 pm

Telomere wrote:
Rhino wrote:Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one then. My only other advice would be ride a less twitchy bike on the track. I love my 600, she handles like a dream and doesn't bite (too hard). :D
One of these days, he will be able to take my 250 out there...of course, it will be after she gets clip-ons and rear-sets (heaven help us if he was to ride an almost upright bike at the track)!!!
Nothing wrong with that, there was a supermoto at Barber in Level 1 that I never caught. Laying on your tank isn't the only way to go fast around corners. :D

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Re: Throttle control question

Post by Telomere » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:24 pm

Rhino wrote:
Telomere wrote:
Rhino wrote:Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one then. My only other advice would be ride a less twitchy bike on the track. I love my 600, she handles like a dream and doesn't bite (too hard). :D
One of these days, he will be able to take my 250 out there...of course, it will be after she gets clip-ons and rear-sets (heaven help us if he was to ride an almost upright bike at the track)!!!
Nothing wrong with that, there was a supermoto at Barber in Level 1 that I never caught. Laying on your tank isn't the only way to go fast around corners. :D
No, nothing wrong at all but he seems to think so :HeadScratch: but I am not quite sure why (I think it is because he can't adjust from his bike position to my bike position).