Advanced throttle question

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Rhino
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Advanced throttle question

Post by Rhino » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:32 pm

So last weekend at MSRC I was trying something new through Rattlesnake--keeping a little bit of throttle on while also braking. It was actually doing me a lot of good--there was no more abrupt throttle on/off that was making the bike rock back and forth. Everything was all smooth.

BUT

On one lap I almost ran off the track when my brain got confused and did gas instead of brake, or something. I'm not entirely sure what was up, I just ended up going faster instead of slower.

Does anybody have any tips on how to manage this better, or is it just a matter of practicing until I don't screw it up anymore?

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Firewa11
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by Firewa11 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:41 pm

What gear were you in going through the rattlesnake? I find it's usually better to be in 2nd to keep things more smooth instead of choppy. You're in uncharted waters regarding running both throttle and brake at the same time when it comes to my experience. I forced myself to stay with 4-finger braking so as not to apply throttle when I'm trying to slow down.

You can try adjusting your throttle so you don't have more than 1/4" play, a lot of times tightening that play helps considerably. They do make better throttle assemblies out there that help smooth things out as well, providing multiple reels you can interchange to give you different feel and response.
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by shilka99 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:44 pm

There are several techniques that can help here but its really only possible to discuss in person, while at the track is best of course. I'll be doing Lead for Level 2 a lot more often next year - did you talk to your instructor about doing Level 2? I'd love to help out wherever I can.
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by Rhino » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:45 pm

I typically take Rattlesnake in 1st. It's not so much that I want to be there through Rattlesnake, but I need it for the drive out of Wagon Wheel. I don't take Rattlesnake and Wagon Wheel fast enough to be in the power band on the exit of Wagon Wheel, so I stay in 1st. When I get the drive out right, my shift light is flashing just before tip-in for Ricochet.

I thought Will used a technique like this where he kept a little throttle on sometimes. Typically I make sure to shut the throttle all the way off when braking, I was just trying something new to see how it did for smoothing things out. It worked great right up until it didn't. :D

Shaun, I'm planning on starting next season in L2. I may be the slow guy for a track day or two, but if it's like L1 I'll get up to speed quickly enough.

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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by DarcShadow » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:46 pm

I wouldn't try keeping the throttle open and on the brakes at the same time. Just asking for trouble. You should be completely off the gas and as hard on the brakes as possible trying to bleed off speed from the long straight. Ideally you do want to blip the thottle to downshift while also braking but that's one trick I've never been able to work out very well at track speeds.

Where exactly in the turn are you getting this rocking you describe? Once I get done braking from the straight it's all throttle control for the rest of the turn.
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by DarcShadow » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:51 pm

Try rolling through it in 2nd now that you're getting quicker. You might be surprised at how much dirve you can get.

There's a bit of a mental thing happening when you run in lower gears. The engine is revving resonably high and your brain tells you you're going fast. But if you run one gear higher, the revs will be a bit lower and your brain won't think you're going as fast, but chaces are you will actually be going faster. I experenced this on the 1.3 track. Ran in lower gears for a sesson or two and then started forcing myself to run in a gear higher for several of the turns and I started catching people that earlier were pulling away from me.
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by Rhino » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:54 pm

Braking, blipping, and downshifting is something I got to practice at Barber going into turn 5. :D

Maybe I just need to work on a slightly different line and/or approach. Typically I do most of my braking at the end of the straight, but I also tend to straighten out the chicanes a lot, to the point that between the third and fourth apex I'm pretty much just running downhill in a straight line. I normally get on the throttle a little, then brake a little for the tip in for Wagon Wheel. Also depending on traffic I may end up on the brakes a bit either going into the first right or the first left--I tend to take that entrance a little faster than most L1 people.

My entrance is usually mid-track over the X, then I stay just to the right of the seam as I'm entering the first right-hander until I get to that little black tar line, that's when I tip in further to apex the right-hander and straighten out for the first left. That lets me actually accelerate a little between the first left and the second right, then slow a little to make the second right, speed up a little between the second right and second left, then slow some for Wagon Wheel.

What line are you guys taking through there?

Edit: DS, I'll give that a try next time, just make myself take it a little faster to see if I can stay in 2nd and be up in RPMs on the Wagon Wheel exit. I know I can do Rattlesnake in 2nd because when I first started at MSRC I was doing the entire track in 2nd. It's just a question of keeping up that drive. I may have to get on the throttle sooner than normal in Wagon Wheel, with the expectation that I'll be driving out hard.

Actually now that I think about it, I know I can do it that way. One of the things I figured out last time is that I'm actually approaching the curbing in Wagon Wheel too soon. When I started easing my approach to make sure I didn't apex early, I stopped feeling like I was going to go meet a corner worker on exit. :D Speeding up my entry should naturally help with that.

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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by fixxervi6 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:25 pm

One of the L2 instructors pushes "short shifting" certain areas with the main idea being, by the time your at your peak drive out, while others are topping out their power band and having to shift, you just keep pouring on the ink resulting in higher speed exits, even if it doesn't "sound" like it because your not sitting at 14,000 rpm.

Tried it, liked it.

Once I go into rattle snake I only brake in one spot but its very light otherwise its all throttle on in second gear, wagon wheel is off chamber with a couple groves in some not so ideal spots, I don't have enough faith in the grip of my tires to hold tight if I were to pour it on in first gear in wagon wheel. Maybe thats me being a chicken shit but oh well, I'd rather keep rubber side down at the risk of being a little bit slower!

I've said it before, but first gear scares me, its too damn twitchy, only time I plan to ever use it again at the track is when I get behind those people parking rattle snake at 30 mph, but then again, I didn't see any of that in level 2.

<-- not the fastest guy at the track

In terms of using 1st for drive out to pass, I didn't touch 1st gear ever in level 2 and had an easier time passing than I did in level 1, mostly due to my confidence in making passes, the traffic around me was more consistent so I felt "safer" going for the pass if that makes sense. Not saying people in level 2 are easier to pass, I just feel more confident about doing it, people were not as squirly as they are in level 1.

I also found level 2 instruction to be better, more geared around getting around the track faster than "go for the X man, make sure you hit that X!"

on a funny note, when I followed telomere around on level 1, I got a shot of a guy "going after an X", you see them in the turn, going slow, WAY off the line. Then they turn their head and see the X and make and abrut change in direction and suddenly move over half way accross the track to "tag" the X then the pulled back out onto their original line like it was a button they could run over for points, at first I laughed then I was like damn, if someone was doing an inside pass during that, it would have been ugly. Think I still have the video, I need to go see if I do and put it up.

sorry for run on scentenes and bad spelling but I"m trying to fix vmware replication and type this at the same time :-)
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by Firewa11 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:12 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:One of the L2 instructors pushes "short shifting" certain areas with the main idea being, by the time your at your peak drive out, while others are topping out their power band and having to shift, you just keep pouring on the ink resulting in higher speed exits, even if it doesn't "sound" like it because your not sitting at 14,000 rpm.

Tried it, liked it.
You worded it a lot better than I... That's pretty much what I found as well. You get people talking about switching to GP shift so they can upshift easier while leaned over, but I typically found myself passing those guys as I had plenty of pull and got much better drives out of a corner because of it.
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by fixxervi6 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:58 pm

Firewa11 wrote:
fixxervi6 wrote:One of the L2 instructors pushes "short shifting" certain areas with the main idea being, by the time your at your peak drive out, while others are topping out their power band and having to shift, you just keep pouring on the ink resulting in higher speed exits, even if it doesn't "sound" like it because your not sitting at 14,000 rpm.

Tried it, liked it.
You worded it a lot better than I... That's pretty much what I found as well. You get people talking about switching to GP shift so they can upshift easier while leaned over, but I typically found myself passing those guys as I had plenty of pull and got much better drives out of a corner because of it.
That same guy showed us a video of him doing that and my first question was, are you using gp shift for that reason and he said yes
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by WillK675 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:47 am

run 2nd gear through rattlesnake. If you find your RPMs are too low to have any any throttle controll in Rattlesnake or to start getting a drive as you enter wagon wheel.... play with the clutch. You don't want to be on the breaks and throttle at the same time. You can slip the clutch a little to get the rpms up and get the throttle control your looking for. This is what I used to do in rattlesnake.

Play a little with it a slow speed in a parking lot, to get used to the clutch play and the spot your looking for. Go in a straight line slowely in 2nd gear and play with the clutch to feel where your getting your RPMs up and it's giving you the torque you need to stay upright and moving. Then you can do that on the track through rattlesnake. Just think double clutching in a car.
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by DarcShadow » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:05 pm

That's nothing like double clutching a car. Double clutching, you push the clutch in shift out of gear, let the clutch out, rev the engine, push the clutch back in and shift into the new gear.

What you're describing is just clutch slip and is just going to wear out your clutch faster. You might be revving higher, but you're not putting any of that extra power to the wheel is't being burnt off in the clutch plates. Only reason to do as you describe is if you are so slow you are about to stall the engine, and if you're going that slow on the track you have done something wrong some where.
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Re: Advanced throttle question

Post by Rhino » Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:31 pm

I think what Will is trying to say is that he used to really suck at Rattlesnake. :D

Thanks for the tips guys, I'll give the 2nd gear thing a shot next time.