When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

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When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by Dragonfly » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:43 pm

I had a student ask me."How early do you get on the gas in a turn? I told him "you should be slightly rolling-on the throttle all the way through the turn to maintain stability".

Afterwards I thought to myself, How early do I get on the gas in a turn? At the apex? When I see the exit? As I'm standing the bike up for exiting the turn?
Well, at the track it's about a split second before max lean angle (not always apex, either). I slowly and progressively roll-on throttle until I'm almost at the rev-limiter which is right about at the exit of the turn. I then grab an upshift and run down the straightaway.
On the street it's about the same, about when I reach the most amount of lean in the turn except I'm not rolling-on the gas as aggressively to hit the rev-limiter (at least not always).
I hadn't thought about it in a really long time. It just comes as second nature/muscle memory or whatever you want to call it.

When do you start to roll-on the throttle in a turn?
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by Rhino » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:47 pm

I go with the Keith Code method--start rolling on when you know you've made the turn.

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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by DarcShadow » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:35 pm

He taught me do all your breaking before the lean the. Get back on the throttle through the entire turn accelerating the entire time. Although because you are turning the acceleration is actually just maintaining speed due to the loss of velocity making the turn. Naturally you are not hard on the throttle and you roll on harder once your past the Alex and starting to stand the bike back up. This is what was taught in the beginner class. Not a race method. Racing you do all kinds of "weird" things to keep the lead.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by fixxervi6 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:39 pm

For me it depends on the turn and if it's track/street.

track "ideal" trail brake to the apex then role on from apex and pin it on exit

I never manage to trail brake all the way to the apex, so I begin to roll on right after I finish braking, sometimes that is mid turn, some times it's before tip in, basically it's either brake, or rolling on gas while trying to minimize coast and maintenance throttle.

On the street I start rolling on as soon as I see the turn is clear to do so, sometimes this is never, sometimes this is on tip in, sometimes it's mid turn. If I'm trail braking on the street it's because I'm trying to scrub speed to abort the "run" through that turn.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by Firewa11 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:01 am

I would say although never taught, I would be in agreement with Keith Code method on the street, once I know I've made the turn I'm on the gas. Usually quite conservative on the street by comparison. While the overall mechanics are the same, even aggressive back road riding is still not the same as track.

On the track, I'm usually 'brake / downshift, body position for turn (sometimes still braking), turn in (sometimes still braking), throttle, apex (max lean), more throttle / drive out, straighten body position / tuck.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by LonestarCBR » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:54 am

Not certain, but the wife says it's too damn early, that's for sure.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by Striple » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:43 pm

Within the context of an MSF course, most of what's been mentioned should be helpful.

At the track, you normally should be on the gas as soon as you're off the brakes.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:31 am

When turning onto another road/merging with traffic sometimes it's not from a complete stop so I treat it like a big curve; especially when merging with traffic (if I have no obstacles I treat it like a wide curve so I can play more). What I find myself doing is as soon as I reach the apex I give it gas and even with the bike not completely straight (still in the turn) I shift up when the engine sings. I haven't felt any jerkiness or anything and I've only upshifted to 2nd each time. Now MSF says not to change gears at all in the middle of a turn.

Is this unsafe? I feel comfortable, nothing is spooking me and it's smooth. BUT, if this will cause problems later on as I keep practicing and developing skills I want to get out of the habit now. What do you think?
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by Firewa11 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:50 am

As a newer rider, I would avoid shifting in the middle of a turn, especially until you become very smooth on the throttle. As an experienced rider, I still avoid shifting in the middle of a turn.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by LonestarCBR » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:05 am

I...err...uhhh...for me...after Don's post...no comment...I'm not paying for clutch levers, or other replacement parts. :D
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by Rhino » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:31 am

BeautifulDisaster wrote:When turning onto another road/merging with traffic sometimes it's not from a complete stop so I treat it like a big curve; especially when merging with traffic (if I have no obstacles I treat it like a wide curve so I can play more). What I find myself doing is as soon as I reach the apex I give it gas and even with the bike not completely straight (still in the turn) I shift up when the engine sings. I haven't felt any jerkiness or anything and I've only upshifted to 2nd each time. Now MSF says not to change gears at all in the middle of a turn.

Is this unsafe? I feel comfortable, nothing is spooking me and it's smooth. BUT, if this will cause problems later on as I keep practicing and developing skills I want to get out of the habit now. What do you think?
There's nothing inherently *wrong* with shifting mid-turn, but on the other hand your Gixxer will do what, 80, 90mph in first? You don't *have* to shift either.

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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:50 pm

Thanks guys, I'm still learning the mechanics of her and she's a tasty beast; I thought that if the revs were high in first that it would "hurt" the bike. Don assured me I can't hurt her and we talked about the dangers of shifting in turns (when you lose power during a shift... doh!). Yes Dave, exactly that. :D Shifting is a new thing for me but for the most part I'm very comfortable. Soon country roads and twisties (at beginner pace!!!!!!). I want to make sure just because I feel comfy with something that it's not setting me up for failure later.

LOL Terry, I pay for my stuff. Sometimes Don gets me a gift or two but he's not the sugar daddy... yet ;) I just apparently have a fetish for broken clutch levers. ;) (nah I dropped her on a bad stop the other day... should've had both feet out the pavement was broken. The good news is I can pick up my bike all by myself and get back on her and go on like nothing happened.) (edit: and Terry I saw earlier you apologized AGAIN for teasing... please don't be sorry! It's funny, you're funny; I love to laugh, it's all good, you're good! I know you edited it out :P )
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by fixxervi6 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:28 pm

The problem with shifting mid corner is it can disrupt the bike, if your running at say 90% of your grip already and you make a shift that disrupts the bike enough to put you at 101% your tumble mode.

If your shifting mid corner and your smooth enough you barely disrupt the bike and you take that 90% to 92% your fine, being a beginner unless your in poor conditions I doubt you come anywhere near 90% of your grip however being able to make smooth shifts takes time, it'd kind of like an art.

That being said you hit read-line at roughly what, 86 mph? Unless your at the track or laying down some serious speed there should be no hard requirement to shift mid corner.

If you want to cheat, switch to GP shift and throw on a quick shifter :)) full throttle at lean and just pow, next gear.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:08 pm

Nah, cheating isn't fun! ;) For me I thought that I just *had* to shift up when the engine was singing, but, now that I understand I can go up to at least 80MPH in 1st and it won't hurt the bike it'll be good. I had it in my mind that right after 10MPH shift up. I'd rather not find out the hard way that shifting in a turn is a no no ;)
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by fixxervi6 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:14 am

BeautifulDisaster wrote:Nah, cheating isn't fun! ;) For me I thought that I just *had* to shift up when the engine was singing, but, now that I understand I can go up to at least 80MPH in 1st and it won't hurt the bike it'll be good. I had it in my mind that right after 10MPH shift up. I'd rather not find out the hard way that shifting in a turn is a no no ;)
Word of warning about inline 4's

They are tame down low and easy to ride, (on a 600cc) 8,000 rpm and the bike doesn't do much when your rough with the throttle, at 8,000 rpm you have low inertial torque and low horsepower output.

At high RPM that is where the power comes on and it can feel explosive, at 15,000 rpm you'll have very high inertial torque and you'll be putting down around 100 horsepower, these engines are designed to run at high rpm and it won't hurt them. When your running at high rpm the bike will become very twitchy, very small movements in the throttle can disrupt the bike.

For this reason I consider inline 4's dangerous for newbies, people can get complacent when they are used to running around in the sub 10,000 rpm range and the first time they get up into the power band the bike bites them in the ass.

Your bike will behave differently at 8,000 rpm than it does at 14,000 rpm, play with it in the straights to start to learn that feel.

imo twins are much better "general street bikes" and much easier to learn on, you don't have to rev the piss out of them to get the power and they have a flatter power curve feel compared to an inline, there is no explosive top end to bite you in the ass, inline-4 600's were built to scream, their sweet spot is above 12,000 rpm, when the bike is in that rpm range it is very unforgiving to mistakes.

Triples are a a great compromise between twins and inline 4's, but there is nothing like the sound of an inline 4 screaming at 15,000 rpm under your chest.

If you start playing in the higher RPM -- BE VERY CAREFUL -- it's going to be a completely different bike.
BeautifulDisaster wrote:Nah, cheating isn't fun! ;) For me I thought that I just *had* to shift up when the engine was singing, but, now that I understand I can go up to at least 80MPH in 1st and it won't hurt the bike it'll be good. I had it in my mind that right after 10MPH shift up. I'd rather not find out the hard way that shifting in a turn is a no no ;)
If your shifting up right after 10mph your short shifting by a lot, if memory serves your bike will idle at 6mph in 1st gear, so if your going into 2nd just past 10mph your going to be near idle PRM, it'll consume more fuel, lug and be generally crappy feeling down that low.

If your keeping the RPM down to keep the bike tame, big thumbs up that's probably a great idea, but you gotta let the engine spin up a bit.

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in the dyno chart, you can see that even at 5,000 rpm your putting out around the peak horsepowe of a ninja 250, less than 30 horsepower, on the other side at 15,000 rpm it's breaking 100 horsepower, if you notice it's more of a power ramp than a power curve, this "ramp" is what can make an inline 4 dangerous imo

but don't let that scare you, just be aware of how your machine operates, that same ramp is what also makes the inline 4 fun.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:21 am

This is very helpful, thank you! Don had shown me this chart a while back when I had tons of questions about the power of my bike, shifting, etc. You guys really are tying it in nicely for me as I'm getting to understand the mechanics. Bit by bit this clicks as I feel and hear what the bike is doing while I play around with the throttle and gears. I respect her power which is why I think I haven't let the RPMs soar so much. I keep her in mode B just for the same reason- I don't want any surprises or to push myself. In a few straightaways I have opened up that throttle and got those RPMs going (I admit I was wanting to smoke some people) and I was slower on the up shifting because I liked what I felt and heard and wanted more-- just not too much. The practice is good and I just want to be safe and careful. It's like leveling up, getting those XP points in and applying them to a skill tree. :cool:
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:20 pm

Okay so the other day when I was riding I experienced something fun. Maybe for other riders it would have been an "OH SHI*" moment. I was in first, high rpm, really laying on that throttle. I believe what I did was chop it, up shifted fast then got right back on the juice, fast. What it felt like to me was the front end coming up, but after a quick discussion we figured it was more than likely a feeling of weightlessness on the front end, all the weight and pull on the rear tire. When I changed gears and layed back on the throttle it was like a slingshot effect, nothing in the front then all the power slammed to the back, tension let loose and that baby took off like hell on wheels. It was loud and fun and fast and I'm sure I got wide-eyed for a second. I want to understand what exactly I did, how and why it happens. I want to understand the technical aspect better, it makes things "click" when I'm playing around. I want to do that again. Does what I described make sense?
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by LonestarCBR » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:03 pm

BeautifulDisaster wrote:Okay so the other day when I was riding I experienced something fun. Maybe for other riders it would have been an "OH SHI*" moment. I was in first, high rpm, really laying on that throttle. I believe what I did was chop it, up shifted fast then got right back on the juice, fast. What it felt like to me was the front end coming up, but after a quick discussion we figured it was more than likely a feeling of weightlessness on the front end, all the weight and pull on the rear tire. When I changed gears and layed back on the throttle it was like a slingshot effect, nothing in the front then all the power slammed to the back, tension let loose and that baby took off like hell on wheels. It was loud and fun and fast and I'm sure I got wide-eyed for a second. I want to understand what exactly I did, how and why it happens. I want to understand the technical aspect better, it makes things "click" when I'm playing around. I want to do that again. Does what I described make sense?
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:48 pm

Hahahaha it's yummy!
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by fixxervi6 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:02 pm

BeautifulDisaster wrote:Okay so the other day when I was riding I experienced something fun. Maybe for other riders it would have been an "OH SHI*" moment. I was in first, high rpm, really laying on that throttle. I believe what I did was chop it, up shifted fast then got right back on the juice, fast. What it felt like to me was the front end coming up, but after a quick discussion we figured it was more than likely a feeling of weightlessness on the front end, all the weight and pull on the rear tire. When I changed gears and layed back on the throttle it was like a slingshot effect, nothing in the front then all the power slammed to the back, tension let loose and that baby took off like hell on wheels. It was loud and fun and fast and I'm sure I got wide-eyed for a second. I want to understand what exactly I did, how and why it happens. I want to understand the technical aspect better, it makes things "click" when I'm playing around. I want to do that again. Does what I described make sense?
Stock GSXR 600 wont pull the front up under gas without clutching or bouncing it off of a bump etc but it will get the front very light, light front end's can shake so stay relaxed on the bars.

If you were smooth on it, sounds like you just felt the pull in the power band, they don't call them "crotch rockets" because they accelerate like a train, it's like sitting on a rocket.

remember high rpm = lots of horsepower, gotta be extra smooth and coax the girl into doing what you want her to do, try to man handle it in the power band and it will try to bite you.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by milesmiles » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:53 pm

It will pull the wheel up if you have it in the power and and then let off and back on fast.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by fixxervi6 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:52 pm

milesmiles wrote:It will pull the wheel up if you have it in the power and and then let off and back on fast.
the 600 in my garage with my fat ass on it won't do it, the 750 will all day long. Key element may be my fat ass.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by 111 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:40 pm

I could never pull the wheel up on my 600 without clutch until I went to the -1 +2. Thats what I have been riding the street with lately. I don't need 150mph on the street anyways.

And to answer the roll on gas question. I guess am a bit less methodical. So whenever I feel like it. However my favorite thing to do in sharper turns is give it enough gas to feel the back end drift.
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:34 am

fixxervi6 wrote:
milesmiles wrote:It will pull the wheel up if you have it in the power and and then let off and back on fast.
the 600 in my garage with my fat ass on it won't do it, the 750 will all day long. Key element may be my fat ass.
That what I like about the Speed Triple...it laughs at my fat ass and wheelies on. :wheelie: :-D :cool:
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Re: When do you roll-on the gas in a turn?

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:58 pm

It's good it's good!!
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