Getting the bike to lean

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Getting the bike to lean

Post by fixxervi6 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:10 pm

So open question, how many of you have experienced this situation:

You turn in, not too fast but fast, you lean the bike more and more, you've now leaned the bike as far as it will go so your starting to feel tense, the bike goes a little wide, you touch the white strip then recover onto the straight out of the turn then when you stop you still have good sized chicken strips - but the bike simply didn't want to lean anymore.

or this one:

Approaching an intersection, turning left (or right) slowly turning and the bike swings out wide and you almost run off into the grass, you felt that if you tipped in any tighter you were going so slow the bike might actually fall over.

I ask because I have witnessed this behavior, and I want to see who is aware that they are experiencing this.

(for those that know what causes these reactions stay quiet)
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by LonestarCBR » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:24 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:So open question, how many of you have experienced this situation:

You turn in, not too fast but fast, you lean the bike more and more, you've now leaned the bike as far as it will go so your starting to feel tense, the bike goes a little wide, you touch the white strip then recover onto the straight out of the turn then when you stop you still have good sized chicken strips - but the bike simply didn't want to lean anymore.
Yes, I've done this.

or this one:
fixxervi6 wrote:Approaching an intersection, turning left (or right) slowly turning and the bike swings out wide and you almost run off into the grass, you felt that if you tipped in any tighter you were going so slow the bike might actually fall over.

I ask because I have witnessed this behavior, and I want to see who is aware that they are experiencing this.

(for those that know what causes these reactions stay quiet)
Yes, I've done this.

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say more at this point.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by fixxervi6 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:40 pm

I've seen several people do it, I want to see how many are aware they are doing it then find out if they know why, then how many are interested in fixing that problem.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by Rhino » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:10 pm

I know why!

The Total Control class has probably the best fix I've ever seen for it.

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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by DarcShadow » Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:00 pm

Can't say I recall ever hitting a lean stop, unless you count the lean so far the bike starts sliding. :(

I've probably done the second one early in my riding but don't nothing jumps out at me, but I've certainty seen it happen.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by LonestarCBR » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:39 am

Well, I'm not sure I've experienced a case where the bike didn't want to lean any more...but maybe the rider didn't. For me, I would say in the early days just a lack of experience and trust led me there. As for today, only something like unexpected gravel or hazard would get me very close. Even then, I'm not in the panic business, so to date I've worked my way through it.

In reading the 2nd scenario a little closer, only on slick pavement (wet, oil, gravel, etc.) might have gotten me close, maybe I haven't done this exactly. Trying to envision a time when I might have...or maybe my memory is just going.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:11 am

Is this track related or street riding related?

I honestly am not sure either way. :\ If my turns are too wide I'm probably going too slow or not looking into/through the turn. I don't know that I've ever had to lean the bike too much through a turn. Another thing I just thought of is there have a been a few times when I've had a brainfart and just dump the clutch and take a turn wider than I wanted, but never a panic moment (except locking the rear wheel, but that's another matter ;) ).
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by milesmiles » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:19 am

BeautifulDisaster wrote: Another thing I just thought of is there have a been a few times when I've had a brainfart and just dump the clutch and take a turn wider than I wanted, but never a panic moment (except locking the rear wheel, but that's another matter ;) ).
On this subject...using your clutch to negotiate turns is a great tool. In super slow turns from a stop i'm often working the clutch not the gas.


Fixxer, are you going to give us an answer?
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:29 am

That's what I normally do, a few times for whatever reason I just decided to release the clutch and weeeee bucking bronco time. I've broken more clutch levers than I've dumped the clutch so we're all safe. :)

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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by Firewa11 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:36 pm

Good question, as a new rider I experienced this a lot. But I am keeping quiet in case Rick decides to actually post more up ;-)
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:38 pm

Firewa11 wrote:Good question, as a new rider I experienced this a lot. But I am keeping quiet in case Rick decides to actually post more up ;-)
Waiting for people to come clean...

But the hint is, both of these issues can be "corrected" with some parking lot drills
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by nitzer » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:15 pm

This was his way of saying someone is riding kinda funky and not trying to call them out by name and hurt their feelings...

He's so considerate...lol
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by DarcShadow » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:30 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:
Firewa11 wrote:Good question, as a new rider I experienced this a lot. But I am keeping quiet in case Rick decides to actually post more up ;-)
Waiting for people to come clean...

But the hint is, both of these issues can be "corrected" with some parking lot drills
It's been almost 6 weeks, don't think anyone is going to come clean, or as I suspect they don't know what you're talking about exactly. Either way, let here the rest of the story.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by fixxervi6 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:57 pm

DarcShadow wrote:
fixxervi6 wrote:
Firewa11 wrote:Good question, as a new rider I experienced this a lot. But I am keeping quiet in case Rick decides to actually post more up ;-)
Waiting for people to come clean...

But the hint is, both of these issues can be "corrected" with some parking lot drills
It's been almost 6 weeks, don't think anyone is going to come clean, or as I suspect they don't know what you're talking about exactly. Either way, let here the rest of the story.
Had to have showed up to the private ride to hear the rest of the story
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by milesmiles » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:15 pm

You didn't tell us that from the beginning, I want a refund. I don't/haven't experienced this myself or at least that I can recall. I'll take a stab at it...rolling off the gas stands the bike up, you learn this in lvl 1. I'm guessing people have trouble with this because they are fighting slowing down in the turn(standing the bike up).

I know this to be a problem and answer for some, just don't know if it is the answer for this particular question.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by fixxervi6 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:07 pm

milesmiles wrote:You didn't tell us that from the beginning, I want a refund. I don't/haven't experienced this myself or at least that I can recall. I'll take a stab at it...rolling off the gas stands the bike up, you learn this in lvl 1. I'm guessing people have trouble with this because they are fighting slowing down in the turn(standing the bike up).

I know this to be a problem and answer for some, just don't know if it is the answer for this particular question.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by milesmiles » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:17 pm

Since we didn't really specify speed, i'm going to say it doesn't have to do with counter steering.

I'm more confused because it could be a number of things and how do we know which one. I mean i just gave a very probable answer
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by fixxervi6 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:25 pm

milesmiles wrote:Since we didn't really specify speed, i'm going to say it doesn't have to do with counter steering.

I'm more confused because it could be a number of things and how do we know which one. I mean i just gave a very probable answer
No you didn't, I didn't say anything about the bike running wide.

edit ok yea I did but that's not what causes it key word is tense, these aren't track speeds or lean angles we are talking about.

It's all right here in blue and white
"leaned the bike as far as it will go so your starting to feel tense"
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by fixxervi6 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:43 pm

1. bike won't lean anymore
- fact, you lean a bike by counter steering, if you continue to push the inside bar into a turn the bike will go all the way down to the pavement and slide out without stopping, the only thing that creates the feeling of "it wont' lean anymore" is the rider has locked up their wrists/elbows/shoulders and they are no longer putting in counter steering control. You can do parking lot drills to teach the brain differently, the old "look left, push left, go left" is truly how it works. It's amazing HOW LITTLE input is required from the rider for a bike to just fall into a turn and continue to lean, "it won't lean anymore" is 100% rider error unless of course your on your plastics then yea it probably isn't going to lean anymore. Rolling off the throttle makes the problem worse mid corner but is not the cause.

I see lots of people on rides, riding with stiff arms, locked elbows, locked wrists, I see it more as the riders fatigue, most people do not sit on sport bikes correctly to start with and this gets them into trouble before they even leave the parking lot.

I see lots of riders run wide when turning at intersections at slow speeds, speeds below just creeping into the counter balance to counter steering speeds, this can also be corrected in a parking lot and involves actually adding throttle - but I won't go into it on here more, Dave or Benny could probably give a text break out of what I am referring to.

Riders not leaning off to the inside of the bike or they FEEL like they are leaning off but they are not, this also has to do with problem number 1 listed above - proper foot position and hand position with unlocked joints and the rider will effortlessly drop to the inside of the bike when they try, locked up joints with improper foot and hand position, they will feel like they are leaning off like rossi but in fact they will be sitting upright.

#1 problem I see, people riding with locked up joints and not riding loose, when you start that way, nothing else matters, you can have the best foot position, look through your turns, perfect throttle control etc, if your not riding lose the bike isn't going to turn properly - and I see this ALL the time.

Shaun probably sees this on the track, people start pushing too hard, they get tense, performance drops.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by Rhino » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:26 am

Yep, that's what I thought it was going to be.

The Total Control class has a really great solution to that problem. When you set up for a turn and moving your body to hang off, you press on the outside lever to counteract your body position change and keep the bike going straight. They describe this like pulling back a bowstring, like you're generating potential energy for the "flop" (quick lean). It's not technically accurate, but it's a useful analogy. When it's time to flop the bike into the turn, there's a two-step process of releasing pressure on the outside grip and applying pressure to the inside grip. Splitting it up forces you to relax that outside hand, which makes it take remarkably little pressure on the inside grip to lean the bike over. You feel much more in control.

Hanging off is irrelevant though--if you find yourself locking up to where the bike won't lean anymore, practice turning one-handed. Take your outside hand completely off the grip. You'll find the bike is much easier to turn. Do that enough, and it'll become second nature to loosen up when you turn.

When I'm riding a bit harder on the street or just want to be precise, I do three things:

1. Stand up briefly (not all the way up, just getting my butt off the seat). This gets my weight on the balls of my feet where it belongs.

2. Scoot my butt back and lean forward. This gets me in "attack" position and also forces my arms to loosen up--you can't lock your elbows if your shoulders are too close to the grips.

3. Flap my elbows like a chicken a couple times. This reinforces keeping my arms loose.

After doing the above, I've mentally separated my body from the bike. They're no longer locked together, instead I'm balancing on top of the bike and am ready to give gentle and deliberate inputs, both with my body balance and my hands. The bike becomes 10x easier to control every time I do this, because I've removed all the tension from my body and have gotten myself thinking about controlling the bike, not just hanging on for the ride.

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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by fixxervi6 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:36 am

I also flap my elbows around a few times :D , elbows have to stay lose. I also try not to "grip" the grips, that just leads to rider fatigue, most of the time my hand is shaped like a U over top the grip, if I start squeezing the grip I have to "reset" because that's going to lead to locking up.

This also ties back to another thread where we talked about "how easy a bike turns or flops over, like a big I4 vs V twin" and I don't believe they take different amounts of "effort" I believe they flick at different speeds (more rotating mass therefore direction change is slower) therefore it's perceived as "harder to flick over in a turn". You get lose on even a big ass gold wing, you push that inside bar and the bike falls right into the turn, it doesn't take a lot of muscle. If a bike does require a lot of muscle to get it to turn, something's not setup right. (for the record I have ridden a gold wing).

Soon as I see straight arms that's a red flag to me, wrists, elbows and shoulders lock with weight forward onto be bars.

Riding lose, head shake is no big deal

Ride locked up, head shake will turn into a tank slapper very quickly

So my primary point of starting this thread, too many people ride locked up, gotta ride lose. You don't "drive" a bike, you "ride" it, think about that.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by Striple » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:56 am

Good threat, lots of great tips here already. I'll add one other item that I feel is related: When a rider perceives to be going too fast
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by Rhino » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:14 am

Bikes with more rake really do take more force to get them to lean. Try a cruiser sometime, it's a night and day difference.

I'll accept arguments that cruisers "aren't set up right", because more accurately they just aren't designed right for performance. :D

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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by Stardog » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:15 pm

In response to original post, yep, had all that stuff. Baffled the crap out of me. Once I figured it out I practiced forcing myself to cause it and then stop it. That fixed me.

Crossing the line happened to me while test riding the Honda. That sucked.
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Re: Getting the bike to lean

Post by Stardog » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:24 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:So my primary point of starting this thread, too many people ride locked up, gotta ride lose. You don't "drive" a bike, you "ride" it, think about that.
I kind of try to just not exert firm force on the bike from any direction. Just ride it like I'm trying to do it without the bike knowing that I am there. Just loose. Fingers wrapped around the bars no tighter than I would maybe a light kitchen broom, for the right hand just the minimum to get traction on the throttle. Just let the bike do it's thing.
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