Cresson, July 16 & 17

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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by fixxervi6 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:29 pm

nitzer wrote:My front Q3 always collects rubber like that. Rick...looks like there are a lot of guys in L2 that need to go back to L1 to learn the track lines again...
No kidding, a few of those guys were out there just kind of cruising the entire lane on a Sunday afternoon drive.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by DarcShadow » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:31 am

LonestarCBR wrote:Yeah, it was actually kind of comical at times, and while I screwed them up on occasion, I was at least making a concerted effort to follow the line THEN pick my speed up. It was interesting however...the instructors voiced a lot of different opinions about lines...maybe that's a L2 thing...in L1 it was much more "THIS is the line and you need to follow it" sort of deal.

I did the track ride on Sunday since it was the first time CW, and that helped a great deal.
The line they try to drill into you in Lv1 is a good line, and is a safe line. But each bike and rider will have a slightly different line and as speeds pickup you need to find the line that works for you and your bike. And there are some drastically different lines for racing vs fun track day. There are lines that may be the fastest around the track, but horrible from a race perspective because they open you up to easily being stuffed in a turn.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by LonestarCBR » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:57 am

Agreed. The problem with mixing just graduated L1 people through competent L3 people that have been forced into L2 due to no space in L3, is mixing all of those lines at different speeds. Starts looking kind of like riding on the street again...got to be looking everywhere for everyone. But, it's fun! I truly had a blast and look forward to more. Like I said, it was much easier to deal with for me than the frustrating log-jams that are L1. Did I say I like the CW rotation? Now I just need to ride the 1.3. :-D
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by DarcShadow » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:09 am

If you like working your tail off and always turning you'll love the 1.3. It is easily my favorite track in TX.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by shilka99 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:02 pm

DarcShadow wrote:If you like working your tail off and always turning you'll love the 1.3. It is easily my favorite track in TX.
Couldnt agree more. Except I would say its the best track after COTA... and easily the best way to learn how to ride well. On the 1.3, skill gets you good lap times not a larger engine.
Its a shame so many riders just want to go fast in a straight line. When people ask me where they can do that more often I tell them to go home and sit in front of a fan and make vroom vroom noises.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by Telomere » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:26 pm

LonestarCBR wrote:Agreed. The problem with mixing just graduated L1 people through competent L3 people that have been forced into L2 due to no space in L3, is mixing all of those lines at different speeds.
Dave typically has a problem filling level 3 (at least he used to when I used to corner work and do track). He was wanting people in Level 2 to move to Level 3 (more money for him if level 3 fills up). Level 3 people who are riding in level 2 (from talking to those who drop to level 2) do it because they have friends that are in level 2 and they want to have fun riding with their friends.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by turismon » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:57 pm

That's why I like doing level 1, cause I know I pretty much just have to watch the people in front of me :P.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by fixxervi6 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:24 pm

RC30rdr wrote:
DarcShadow wrote:If you like working your tail off and always turning you'll love the 1.3. It is easily my favorite track in TX.
Couldnt agree more. Except I would say its the best track after COTA... and easily the best way to learn how to ride well. On the 1.3, skill gets you good lap times not a larger engine.
Its a shame so many riders just want to go fast in a straight line. When people ask me where they can do that more often I tell them to go home and sit in front of a fan and make vroom vroom noises.
Do you take the RSV4 on the 1.3? I've had the 250 out there but I think the ape is just too much for the 1.3, so I thought about maybe like rain mode?
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by LonestarCBR » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:03 pm

L3 guys were in L2 to some degree because of the CMRA racers who filled up L3 to practice for this coming weekend (so sayeth the instructors).

I found having to worry about only the people in front of me a little frustrating...very hard to develop a rhythm and improve my skills as I'm progressing. But it is fun riding with your friends, so I get that.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by DarcShadow » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:40 pm

LonestarCBR wrote:I found having to worry about only the people in front of me a little frustrating.
huh? why do you want to worry about the people behind you as well?
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by LonestarCBR » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:20 pm

I was referring to the fact that in L1 there was always a traffic jam...not so much in L2.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by shilka99 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:55 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:Do you take the RSV4 on the 1.3? I've had the 250 out there but I think the ape is just too much for the 1.3, so I thought about maybe like rain mode?
I have a hard time choosing between the RSV4 and the supermoto when riding on the 1.3. Last time on the 1.3 I spent half the day racing with another instructor on my RSV4 while he was riding his new ZX-10, the other half dicing with riders on 600's while riding the supermoto. I love the challenge of pushing the small bike as hard as possible. It turns so fast and has such good drive it can zip past bigger bikes easily. On the RSV4 its a matter of keeping the perfect line because being a few inches off can mess up the next 2 or 3 corners, or send you into the grass. But that power is addictive. And the fantastic front end on the aprilia is so much fun the 1.3 is the perfect place to push it.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by Telomere » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:00 pm

LonestarCBR wrote:I was referring to the fact that in L1 there was always a traffic jam...not so much in L2.
Yup...totally agree. Was this weekend your first time in L2? I thought you have done L2 many times before...am I incorrect on this?
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by DarcShadow » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:20 pm

I don't get why ONLY worrying about the people in front of you was frustrating. Statement sounds like you wanted more people to worry about.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by Telomere » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:24 pm

DarcShadow wrote:I don't get why ONLY worrying about the people in front of you was frustrating. Statement sounds like you wanted more people to worry about.
I think what he is talking about is being at the back of the traffic jam (like last person in the jam) so while, yes there were people behind him, they just were of no concern to him at that time (since he was the last one in the jam and the next jam was a few corners behind him). His concern was the jam of riders that were in front of him holding him up. If that makes sense. I don't think he is talking about being in the middle of a traffic jam where there are riders both directly in front and directly behind him.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:47 am

:icon_wss0be:

First time in L2 this weekend.

In L1, just like on the highway, just frustrated with slow traffic was the point. So moving up to L2 helped that a lot...that was my point.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by DarcShadow » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:07 am

Got it, I misread your initial reply. More sense now it makes.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by WickerMan » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:57 am

How do you know when your ready to move up to Level 2? My best lap on the 27th was 1:53.99 or so as recorded on my GoPro. But it was hot and I was hot by time I started recording the last 2 sessions and I wasn't going balls out. I'm tired of being held up in turns too, but at the same time I'm sure I'm the one holding some people up sometimes. I think I'm going to point my GoPro backwards next time. I just don't think I'm fast enough for 2 when my renter on his first track day said he was around 1:30 on his ZX-10R, or so he said. I'm still trying to get him to show me the Sena footage. I don't want to ride with him at the track, he's crazy reckless. At least if I did, he'd fly by and I'd wouldn't be around him for long. He says CMRA is too tame and he thinks he's going to try to do the TT. He doesn't have money for either so he's a street Rossi. Made up a new term.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:04 am

WickerMan wrote:How do you know when your ready to move up to Level 2? My best lap on the 27th was 1:53.99 or so as recorded on my GoPro. But it was hot and I was hot by time I started recording the last 2 sessions and I wasn't going balls out. I'm tired of being held up in turns too, but at the same time I'm sure I'm the one holding some people up sometimes. I think I'm going to point my GoPro backwards next time. I just don't think I'm fast enough for 2 when my renter on his first track day said he was around 1:30 on his ZX-10R, or so he said. I'm still trying to get him to show me the Sena footage. I don't want to ride with him at the track, he's crazy reckless. At least if I did, he'd fly by and I'd wouldn't be around him for long. He says CMRA is too tame and he thinks he's going to try to do the TT. He doesn't have money for either so he's a street Rossi. Made up a new term.
It's quite rare but I do know of one instance where someones first track day they turned ~1:30+/- at cresson - otherwise that sounds bogus to me.

Post your video up from your track day, I'll give my opinion for the .01 that it's worth and Shaun is an excellent resource on this forum.

I do not get and will never understand the mentality of people "being held up" and getting frustrated, there are for sure frustrations but being held up is not one of them, please let me expand a bit -

Are you going to the track day to set your lap record pace? If the answer is yes then your going for the wrong reason, if the answer is no, then why do you get so frustrated when you can't nail a corner at your maximum pace, do you feel that you have to be going at 100% of your capacity to become a better rider?

How much passing are you doing?

When you get behind a group of 8 bikes, do you try to just squirt it in the straights to pass?

I'm by no means a ridesmart level expert but I do have some data from my own personal track days, based on that data a 1:54 would be a slow rider in level 2. When I "follow people" for a lap in level 2 I usually turn between a 1:38 and a 1:48 so my gut says that's about average for level 2. I've turned sub 1:30's at cresson at my peak before surgery in level 2, quit a bit faster than the average lap time for level 2 and I never had problems with being "held up". This last track day "WITH TRAFFIC" I was turning sub 1:35's, and 1:31 without traffic. To compare a quick level 3 guy will turn 1:22 - 1:25 not running street tires -again this is based on my own observations and data, I don't have a huge database of ridesmart data to go off of so take this for what it's worth.

When I chase down a group of say 8 or 10 bikes in level 2, yea, I get slowed down for a few laps, but I use that time to watch them, or tighten my corners up, work on something I need to work on, then work my way through the group and keep going. Before anyone wants to blast me saying "but your on a liter bike" I have plenty of pass footage on a 750 and I've passed BMW1000rr's on a Ninja 250 on more than one track.

So if your being held up in the corners, why aren't you passing?

My "frustrations" with track days:

1. No inside passing allowed - on smaller bikes allowing inside passing would allow you to completely own the track when a sloppy liter bike tries to do their thing
2. Riders moving up levels when they shouldn't be - part of my big hesitation of going to level 3, I don't want to be "that guy". I can't stand getting out with someone on the track that has no clue what a line is, I've almost been taken out by screwballs, they need to go back to level 1.
3. Racer wannabe's - I'm trying to ride my ride and some slower aggressive rider keeps trying to show me a wheel, that just gets annoying after a while, if you can't do it you can't do it.
4. Everyone bitching about track days and how they have to deal with too much traffic. (some of us don't have traffic issues, what are we doing different?)
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:25 am

Wickerman, next time you go out if your lines are solid try to practice this skill in the afternoon:

https://youtu.be/0fIsU6S5qOs?t=9m59s

On a smaller displacement bike if you carry the momentum from the straight through the turn and you time it right you'll walk right by big bikes on exit even if they pin it in the straight. When I had the 250 out there I had a CBR chasing me for a few laps trying to pass me in the main straight, he couldn't. I got the drive out of big bend and out braked him into rattle snake, he got more and more aggressive. At first I could tell he was there because I could hear him on the straights, after a few more laps he kept trying to show me a wheel - he never got around me even in the straights with 4X the horsepower I had.

The key is in the timing, you can't be "up their ass" going into the turn, if you are you won't be able to out power them, the key is keep enough distance off of them so that they are already IN the corner when you start your tip in, and you just use your momentum to walk right by them, if you maintain enough speed when you pass them onto the straight even if they pin it, they won't be able to overtake you before the next corner - if you nail this a few times the track day world will completely transform for you I promise.

I discovered this by following Striple for a lap, we picked off 5 riders in one corner and my eyes were opened.

The caveat to the "maintain momentum" is that sometimes you have to "slow down" to give yourself enough run way, if you tip into the corner with them unless you hammer around the outside you'll never get them on exit, it's all about carrying the speed from the straight through the corner and timing it so you walk right by them after they cross the apex.

Now, some may argue "yea but Rick if I do that I have to go off the line" yes, yes you do, but who cares, your still learning control and that's what matters most unless your out there trying to set your track day lap record.

What I have linked to and described is not real easy, but if you practice it and nail it, track days will change for you and there is no other satisfaction in this wold that can compare to blowing away a big bike with a little bike.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by DarcShadow » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:30 am

damn it, I had posted pretty much the exact same thing and for some reason it didn't post and just now noticed it while reading this thinking, I just said that. agggg.

100% agree with Rick, you have to give the guy that is slower in the turns a gap so that you can come in at the speed you want and blow by them on the exit. And it completely changes your track day experiences. One of the best track sessions I ever had was one out at Barber with a guy on a larger Duc that was faster in the straights but I could handle traffic and run the turns better so we were dicing it up the entire session and passing each other 3 or 4 times a lap. One part of his problem was his unwillingness to go off line. There are several spots at Barber where you can take an "odd" line that blow by people on the "normal" line.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:24 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:I do not get and will never understand the mentality of people "being held up" and getting frustrated, there are for sure frustrations but being held up is not one of them, please let me expand a bit -
I made this comment a few times, and it was in regard to riding in L1. And I'm not talking about trying to set a record, but to progress and improve in my lines, body position, and yes...speed...it is part of the experience. I didn't have that problem in L2...might have been causing a little of it Saturday morning. :-D
Last edited by LonestarCBR on Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by Telomere » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:27 pm

LonestarCBR wrote:
fixxervi6 wrote:I do not get and will never understand the mentality of people "being held up" and getting frustrated, there are for sure frustrations but being held up is not one of them, please let me expand a bit -
I made this comment a few times, and it was in regard to riding in L1. And I'm not talking about trying to set a record, but to progress and improve in my lines, body positions, and yes...speed...it is part of the experience. I didn't have that problem in L2...might have been causing a little of it Saturday morning. :-D
Fixxer never had a problem with this because he was always a badass on the track 8) so, since he was always a badass, he never experienced this and doesn't understand the frustration.

Terry, do you have any idea what your lap times were in L1 or what they were on Saturday, when you were in L2?
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:30 pm

No idea, I was taking it easy on the straights versus hauling ass and trying to focus on lines, and later body position. Sunday I picked the pace up, and I have some video, might be able to figure it out from that.
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Re: Cresson, July 16 & 17

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:31 pm

LonestarCBR wrote:
fixxervi6 wrote:I do not get and will never understand the mentality of people "being held up" and getting frustrated, there are for sure frustrations but being held up is not one of them, please let me expand a bit -
I made this comment a few times, and it was in regard to riding in L1. And I'm not talking about trying to set a record, but to progress and improve in my lines, body position, and yes...speed...it is part of the experience. I didn't have that problem in L2...might have been causing a little of it Saturday morning. :-D
Did you get to where you were doing much passing in level 1 before deciding it was time to take on level 2?
Telomere wrote: Fixxer never had a problem with this because he was always a badass on the track 8) so, since he was always a badass, he never experienced this and doesn't understand the frustration.

Terry, do you have any idea what your lap times were in L1 or what they were on Saturday, when you were in L2?
Totally not true, I just do a good job of editing my video :))
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