E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

This section can be controversial. All opinions and arguments are welcome. Personal attacks are not acceptable.
Post Reply
User avatar
WillK675
Posts: 8511
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Fort Worth

E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by WillK675 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:21 am

Got this from the AMA.... Looks like the EPA is still trying to push higher ethanol blends despite their own acknowledgment that it's not good and cant be consumed by the majority of the public. This could be really bad for not only our Motorcycles and ATVs but also for older vehicles that are not approved for E15. Hell my truck is only 2.5 years old, it's not approved for E15, and E15 would damage it. :ar15:
American Motorcycle Association wrote:Federal agency actions increase ethanol risks for motorcycles
Sign the AMA petition today!


Sign Petition!

The Renewable Fuel Standard proposal announced on May 29 by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency would increase the risk of misfueling for motorcyclists and all-terrain-vehicle owners by forcing the widespread availability of higher-ethanol fuel blends, such as E15.

Act now by signing the American Motorcyclist Association’s petition to voice your concern.

The EPA proposed setting the renewable fuel standard for 2014 at the levels that were actually produced and used, which totaled 15.93 billion gallons. But for 2015, the standard rises to 16.3 billion gallons. And for 2016, the total increases again, to 17.4 billion gallons.

By increasing the amounts of ethanol into America’s gasoline marketplace, the EPA will exceed the blend wall by hundreds of millions of gallons! The blend wall is the point at which no more ethanol can be blended without creating higher blends like E15 and above.

This means ethanol blends of 15 percent or higher likely will become more prevalent because of this proposed rule.

However, in a regulatory announcement released Aug. 6, 2013, “EPA Finalizes Renewable Fuel Standards,” the EPA said that for 2014 “the ability of the market to consume ethanol in higher blends such as E85 is highly constrained as a result of infrastructure -- and market-related factors. EPA does not currently foresee a scenario in which the market could consume enough ethanol sold in blends greater than E10…”

The EPA is pushing higher ethanol limits despite its own acknowledgment that the market cannot consume these higher amounts due to “infrastructure and market-related factors.”

That’s when the U.S. Department of Agriculture comes to the rescue. On the same day the EPA announced its proposed rule, the USDA unveiled a $100 million plan to double the number of higher-blend renewable-fuel pumps. Under the blender pump subsidy program, the USDA will administer competitive grants to match funding for state-led efforts to test and evaluate innovative and comprehensive approaches to market higher blends of renewable fuel, such as E15 and E85.

The EPA calls for higher ethanol blended fuels and the USDA spends taxpayer dollars to make it happen, despite knowing that none of the estimated 22 million motorcycles and ATVs in use in the United States is approved to use E15 or higher ethanol blends. Using those fuels in motorcycles and ATVs is illegal and may cause engine and fuel system damage and void the manufacturer's warranty.

The EPA opened a comment period to allow the public to voice their opinion on the proposed rule. The AMA has the tools to make it easy for you to submit comments by signing our petition.

The AMA will submit every name and address with our comments to the EPA. There is nothing more powerful than thousands of riders joining to express their concern with unsafe fuel for their rides.
-Will
'07 Daytona 675
'09 Versys 650
'14 CB500
'20 MB200
When it comes to addiction Motorcycles are worse than crack.
"Brake fade is God's way of telling you to quit squeezing the coward lever and carry more corner speed, you pussy." - Rhino

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:22 am

Lots of apes and MV's having issues with the current blends as is.
K1600

User avatar
JTChiTown
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:19 pm
Riding Style: Novice Track Rider
Achievement count: 7
Location: Lewisville

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by JTChiTown » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:34 am

Just the government at work. Gotta stay busy making new laws.

Grand scheme, if a bike can take e10, it should do e15 no problem. I'm not a fan, just saying the sky isn't falling.
Jeff

"Drive fast, attract Cops; Drive faster, attract Sponsors"
Image

User avatar
WillK675
Posts: 8511
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Fort Worth

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by WillK675 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:48 am

JTChiTown wrote:Grand scheme, if a bike can take e10, it should do e15 no problem.
Do a little research here. They have found major issues in small displacement motors going from E10 to E15. The higher ethanol content has damaging side effects.
-Will
'07 Daytona 675
'09 Versys 650
'14 CB500
'20 MB200
When it comes to addiction Motorcycles are worse than crack.
"Brake fade is God's way of telling you to quit squeezing the coward lever and carry more corner speed, you pussy." - Rhino

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:05 am

E10 currently has damanging effects - it makes the RSV4 and MV gas tanks swell
K1600

User avatar
BeautifulDisaster
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:32 pm
Achievement count: 14
Location: My own world.

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by BeautifulDisaster » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:31 pm

Alcohol is corrosive... But what we're doing here is trying to apply simple logic and a hint of Science against the EPA wanting to infiltrate the market with diluted caboose juice. *eyeroll* E10 has been shown to already cause issues, slightly older engines that try to use E15 will more than likely have the warranty voided because of the high damage risk.

I'm glad this is in the politics section because the push for E fuel is purely political. It may SLIGHTLY reduce petroleum toxins and it may SEEM to stretch available resources of gasoline by merely diluting it, but, the damage risk is much more high and the pros vs. cons with this is a no-brainer... for those of us with brains anyway. Throw a bottom line in there, a money hungry government agency and viola. Tinfoil hats required.
"So bright... so beautiful... ah, Precioussss."
Image

User avatar
JTChiTown
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:19 pm
Riding Style: Novice Track Rider
Achievement count: 7
Location: Lewisville

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by JTChiTown » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:58 pm

Got a link to the tests?

Everything I've seen from my arena has indicated it's a non event. Mainly because the tolerances of pump gas vary so much - it's likely you've already had several tanks of e15- the the systems are tolerant to much more than e15.

I'm not saying it want it - or any ethanol really - just that for the most part we won't notice it. Maybe the equipment out there that can't handle e10 will fail sooner, and maybe we will have the random "bad tank of gas" more often, but motors won't go seizing up any more often than previously.
Jeff

"Drive fast, attract Cops; Drive faster, attract Sponsors"
Image

User avatar
dufremle
Club Staff/Treasurer
Club Staff/Treasurer
Posts: 12567
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:57 am
Riding Style: Novice Track Rider
Achievement count: 0
Location: NW Fort Worth
Contact:

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by dufremle » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:13 pm

From my understanding, the issue is with the older rubber seals in the fuel system. The ethanol dries them out, causing them to crack and fail. Which in turn causes fuel leaks. The issue is mainly with fuel lines and injectors.
Jim

2024 Subaru Crosstrek
2017 Toyota 4Runner

User avatar
LonestarCBR
Posts: 7573
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:39 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 32
Location: Stephenville, Texas

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:25 pm

I can speak to the accuracy of Jim's statement through personal and extremely aggravating experiences.
~ Terry
'12 Speed Triple 1050 ABS, '07 GSX-R750 (track)
Happiness isn't around the corner, it IS the corner.
Anybody can jump a motorcycle. The trouble begins when you try to land it. EK
Image

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:43 pm

E10 vs E15 - E15 would just eat those seals up faster I assume. If a vehicle handles E10 I don't see why it wouldn't be able to handle E15.

E85 however may require some extra special stuff (I dunno I just assume timing may be different etc)

But on us plastic gas tank guys, E15 will probably cause gas tank swelling faster than E10, which is an existing issue with E10.
K1600

User avatar
dufremle
Club Staff/Treasurer
Club Staff/Treasurer
Posts: 12567
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:57 am
Riding Style: Novice Track Rider
Achievement count: 0
Location: NW Fort Worth
Contact:

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by dufremle » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:09 pm

E85 definitely requires specialized equipment.
Jim

2024 Subaru Crosstrek
2017 Toyota 4Runner

User avatar
nitzer
Posts: 1607
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:27 pm
Riding Style: Novice Track Rider
Achievement count: 8
Location: Austin

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by nitzer » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:14 pm

E85 does require hardware type differences. My older Silverado had a 5.3L engine in it that was not E85 compatible, but the new GMC has the same engine, but is E85 compatible. I've never run E85 nor do I want to even though it's cheaper due to the fact that the gas mileage drops pretty significantly (about 30% I've heard) when you do. Most of the differences in the engine deal with the timing. When the computer detects the E85 it retards the timing to avoid detention. The spark plugs also have to have a different temperature range to be able to handle it. Theoretically every "automobile" manufacturer makes their gaskets and seals to withstand E10 gas.

A GM tech also said: Flex fuel engines use unique injectors with a greater cone angle and higher maximum fuel-flow rate. The fuel rail matches the injectors, but it's manufactured of the same stainless steel used for all Vortec V-8s.

So the actual fuel lines are the same in both engines.

But, this is for E85 of course not E15.
- Derek
2007 Kawasaki Ninja 250 (SOLD)
2003 Suzuki SV650S (SOLD)
2008 Honda VFR 800 Interceptor (Street)

Winning hearts and minds...two the heart, one to the mind.

Image

User avatar
Fussy
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:16 am
Achievement count: 0
Location: Far North Fort Worth

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by Fussy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:08 am

Isn't ethanol also worse for mileage?
- Ben
'15 BMW R nineT

User avatar
JTChiTown
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:19 pm
Riding Style: Novice Track Rider
Achievement count: 7
Location: Lewisville

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by JTChiTown » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:52 am

Yes. Ethanol has a much lower energy density, that's why it's worse for mileage (takes more to make the same bang). However, in most engines running on e85 will allow you to produce slightly higher peak HP. Go figure.

When I worked on the trucks, there were only 5-6 parts that had to be changed due to negative lifetime effects of exposure to e85. Most of the changes were as you said, necessary to make sure the vehicle can pump enough fuel to make it run right on e85. Besides the injectors the ecm and fuel pump were different for e85. There was an inline sensor for awhile that was later removed and replaced by ecm calculations.

The biggest issue with e15 is the water absorbtion. Ethanol absorbs eater whereas gasoline wont. Water is very bad for all engines and fueling systems, and with the quality of today's fuel distribution and storage systems, I see that as the biggest problem we need to overcome. That's usually why if you run pump gas in your yard equipment, it won't start in the spring after sitting all winter.

When I lived in Michigan I had a pilot next door. He got me hooked on 100LL for my yard equipment. It was great. Stuff would sit for 7 months and fire up first try. Just bring home a 5 gallon jug every couple of weeks from the airport.
Jeff

"Drive fast, attract Cops; Drive faster, attract Sponsors"
Image

111
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 667
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:16 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 4
Location: Arlington

Re: E15 Gas - This isn't looking good for us.

Post by 111 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:15 pm

My wife's car will run e85. I tested it for a while. I haven't kept up with the prices but At the time it was 30% cheaper. I got 30% less gas mileage out of it. So my conclusion is that it wasn't worth running. Especially since I had to gas up more often and the gas causes corrosion or drying of rubber parts etc.
Red on Black 12 GSXR 600