What do you think about Ukrain

This section can be controversial. All opinions and arguments are welcome. Personal attacks are not acceptable.
Post Reply
User avatar
DemonDuck
Honorary Club Member
Honorary Club Member
Posts: 7623
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:21 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 40
Location: Litchfield, Il

What do you think about Ukrain

Post by DemonDuck » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:32 pm

Just curious what everyone thinks about the whole deal. Should we do anything or just stay out of it? If we do nothing then is there a point when we should do something? What is your reasoning behind your opinion?
~Jeremiah~ AKA DemonDuck
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.

2012 BMW S1000RR Red/White
2000 SV650 Track bike
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14 - Sold
1982 Honda CB750K - Sold

User avatar
LonestarCBR
Posts: 7573
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:39 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 32
Location: Stephenville, Texas

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:37 am

Well, this I know for sure, you can't huff, and puff, and threaten to blow their house down...then do nothing. I like the "walk softly and carry a big stick" adage for times like this. Obama will have us completely neutered in the eyes of the world by the time he leaves office. Some people will think that's a good thing (keep our nose out of everyone else's business), and others will see it as a weakening of America. I side with the latter. As the most successful democracy in the world, and arguably still the biggest player in most things, I believe we have a moral responsibility to help those who may not necessarily be able to help themselves. And that can manifest itself in a lot of different ways, not just in military might. That brings with it a very heavy price sometimes (okay, almost all the time). I believe (my opinion, I 'll open the religion piece now), that God has blessed this nation beyond measure, and with those blessings comes the aforementioned moral responsibility. That's my fairly uneducated opinion. And in case I've never said so, thank you for your service, I truly appreciate it and it's a shame that any American would every feel differently towards a service member.
~ Terry
'12 Speed Triple 1050 ABS, '07 GSX-R750 (track)
Happiness isn't around the corner, it IS the corner.
Anybody can jump a motorcycle. The trouble begins when you try to land it. EK
Image

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Rhino » Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:54 am

Considering how the US followed manifest destiny to get where we are, and how our most recent strategic territory acquisition happened within the last 50 years, I don't think we have a whole lot of room to talk.

My understanding is that Crimea is mostly Russian speaking and populated by people who identify with Russia more than the Ukraine. They ended up being part of the Ukraine when the USSR split up, but weren't necessarily happy about it. If they want to be part of Russia, so be it.

That said, I think the US and Europe fucked up. Ukraine was seen as sort of a "neutral ground" between Russia and the West, a place where those two cultures blend. The hard line stance of "you'd better not or else!" force Putin's hand. It was dumb to get in a dick waving contest with him, because it turns out he's got a dick to wave right back. Diplomacy would have been a smarter approach.

Going forward, I'd like to see the US acknowledge that Crimea is part of Russia and work towards making sure it's not a new Cuba--a strategic front for Russia to get all pissy against Europe.

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:21 am

Rhino wrote:Considering how the US followed manifest destiny to get where we are, and how our most recent strategic territory acquisition happened within the last 50 years, I don't think we have a whole lot of room to talk.

My understanding is that Crimea is mostly Russian speaking and populated by people who identify with Russia more than the Ukraine. They ended up being part of the Ukraine when the USSR split up, but weren't necessarily happy about it. If they want to be part of Russia, so be it.

That said, I think the US and Europe fucked up. Ukraine was seen as sort of a "neutral ground" between Russia and the West, a place where those two cultures blend. The hard line stance of "you'd better not or else!" force Putin's hand. It was dumb to get in a dick waving contest with him, because it turns out he's got a dick to wave right back. Diplomacy would have been a smarter approach.

Going forward, I'd like to see the US acknowledge that Crimea is part of Russia and work towards making sure it's not a new Cuba--a strategic front for Russia to get all pissy against Europe.
Agree

US troops dying over this would be another tragedy
K1600

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Rhino » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:41 am

Not to mention that we'd have zero leg to stand on. Basically it would be the US saying "we believe in democracy, as long as we agree with the outcome".

Remember, they voted to become part of Russia.

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:59 am

Rhino wrote:...Basically it would be the US saying "we believe in XXXXXXXX as long as we agree with the outcome".
I thought that was U.S. policy on pretty much everything.
K1600

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Rhino » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:40 am

No, in general US policy has been "we will beat Democracy into you whether you want it or not".

User avatar
DemonDuck
Honorary Club Member
Honorary Club Member
Posts: 7623
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:21 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 40
Location: Litchfield, Il

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by DemonDuck » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:10 am

I can agree on Crimea. But what if/when Putin sends troops into more of Ukraine. Starts moving to take the rest of the country? Is there any point that we do get involved. I also agree that if your going to say "better not or else" then when they do you best do something big and public.
~Jeremiah~ AKA DemonDuck
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.

2012 BMW S1000RR Red/White
2000 SV650 Track bike
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14 - Sold
1982 Honda CB750K - Sold

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Rhino » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:24 am

I think there's going to be incredibly small public support for going into Ukraine no matter what Russia does.

Honestly that's Europe's problem. If they ask for help, maybe we could send a token force like they did for our recent conflicts. But I don't see us stepping in militarily in a big way.

User avatar
DemonDuck
Honorary Club Member
Honorary Club Member
Posts: 7623
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:21 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 40
Location: Litchfield, Il

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by DemonDuck » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:54 am

So you don't think we should do anything military wise or you just don't think we will? I mean even if Putin takes all of Ukraine?
~Jeremiah~ AKA DemonDuck
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.

2012 BMW S1000RR Red/White
2000 SV650 Track bike
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14 - Sold
1982 Honda CB750K - Sold

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Rhino » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:00 pm

I don't think we should and I hope we won't.

Ukraine isn't our business.

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:06 pm

Agree, enough people have died meddling where we shouldn't
K1600

User avatar
LonestarCBR
Posts: 7573
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:39 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 32
Location: Stephenville, Texas

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:21 pm

Rhino wrote:I think there's going to be incredibly small public support for going into Ukraine no matter what Russia does.

Honestly that's Europe's problem. If they ask for help, maybe we could send a token force like they did for our recent conflicts. But I don't see us stepping in militarily in a big way.
Remember Hitler? He was Europe's problem also.
~ Terry
'12 Speed Triple 1050 ABS, '07 GSX-R750 (track)
Happiness isn't around the corner, it IS the corner.
Anybody can jump a motorcycle. The trouble begins when you try to land it. EK
Image

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:39 pm

LonestarCBR wrote:
Rhino wrote:I think there's going to be incredibly small public support for going into Ukraine no matter what Russia does.

Honestly that's Europe's problem. If they ask for help, maybe we could send a token force like they did for our recent conflicts. But I don't see us stepping in militarily in a big way.
Remember Hitler? He was Europe's problem also.
Not the same thing here
K1600

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Rhino » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:48 pm

Yeah, nice try at Godwinning the thread, but you're going to need some seriously big tinfoil hats to make the claim that Putin wants to rule the world, based on taking over a piece of a country that wanted to be taken over.

User avatar
DemonDuck
Honorary Club Member
Honorary Club Member
Posts: 7623
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:21 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 40
Location: Litchfield, Il

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by DemonDuck » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:14 pm

I am not saying he wants to take over the world. However I do believe the same type of conversations happened when Hitler took the first small country. Is it possible that he wants to do more than just take Crimea ? Yes. This is why I ask if there is any defined line that we must make a military response if he was to continue. Do we sit back and not worry about it until he hits a NATO nation?
~Jeremiah~ AKA DemonDuck
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.

2012 BMW S1000RR Red/White
2000 SV650 Track bike
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14 - Sold
1982 Honda CB750K - Sold

User avatar
LonestarCBR
Posts: 7573
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:39 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 32
Location: Stephenville, Texas

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:33 pm

fixxervi6 wrote:
LonestarCBR wrote:
Rhino wrote:I think there's going to be incredibly small public support for going into Ukraine no matter what Russia does.

Honestly that's Europe's problem. If they ask for help, maybe we could send a token force like they did for our recent conflicts. But I don't see us stepping in militarily in a big way.
Remember Hitler? He was Europe's problem also.
Not the same thing here
Not yet, which is exactly the point. In the late 30's a lot of people looked at Hitler the same way, but time proved differently. Are they different? Most likely, but the question is, does the world bury their head in the sand and hope for the best? Do you do the same thing with Iran and the nutjob at the helm there (or SK), or do you say "hey dammit, you can't do that" (whatever "that" may be)?
rhino wrote:Yeah, nice try at Godwinning the thread, but you're going to need some seriously big tinfoil hats to make the claim that Putin wants to rule the world, based on taking over a piece of a country that wanted to be taken over.
Yeah Dave, I was specifically waiting for your "Godwining" comeback...I think you used it on another thread. I don't think there is any doubt that Putin has a Hitler sized ego, you can see that is a lot he does and says. Again, is he harmless, or is this just the "early days". It's just a question, or a situation, that bears some attention...and maybe some type of action to keep in check??? I'm basically saying the same thing DemonDuck is saying. He just didn't use the "H" word.
~ Terry
'12 Speed Triple 1050 ABS, '07 GSX-R750 (track)
Happiness isn't around the corner, it IS the corner.
Anybody can jump a motorcycle. The trouble begins when you try to land it. EK
Image

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Rhino » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:08 pm

That's easy to prove--Hitler became Chancellor of Germany in January 1933 and had built an army and invaded Czechoslovakia by April 1938.

Putin has had power as either President or Prime Minister since 1999.

Take off the tin foil hat.

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by fixxervi6 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:08 pm

DemonDuck wrote:...Do we sit back and not worry about it until he hits a NATO nation?
Yes

From listening to NPR lots of Ukrainians want to be back with mother Russia, so what business is it of ours? If there is a local hold out government but the populous is divided (which it is) then who are WE to decide, who died and made America god?

I think this is just another case where America is trying to play bully policeman on the block, you'd think we would learn but I guess not.
K1600

User avatar
LonestarCBR
Posts: 7573
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:39 pm
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 32
Location: Stephenville, Texas

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by LonestarCBR » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:43 pm

Rhino wrote:That's easy to prove--Hitler became Chancellor of Germany in January 1933 and had built an army and invaded Czechoslovakia by April 1938.

Putin has had power as either President or Prime Minister since 1999.

Take off the tin foil hat.
In Stephenville, we use tin foil hats for protection from UFOs in case you haven't heard.
~ Terry
'12 Speed Triple 1050 ABS, '07 GSX-R750 (track)
Happiness isn't around the corner, it IS the corner.
Anybody can jump a motorcycle. The trouble begins when you try to land it. EK
Image

User avatar
DemonDuck
Honorary Club Member
Honorary Club Member
Posts: 7623
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:21 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 40
Location: Litchfield, Il

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by DemonDuck » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:31 pm

If we should sit back and don't worry about it till he attacks a NATO nation then he could take a whole lot of countries. At that point it could be to late. Again maybe he does nothing at all. Honestly the only part that really has me upset is the threats we gave then didn't back up. We look like punks. Also if he uses military to take the rest of Ukraine then I have a problem with it. They vote to be part of Russia then I'm cool. Some of my feelings on this are of course swayed by being in combat zones and seeing first hand the kind of things that happen.

I am only saying that if the majority of Ukraine does not want to be part of Russia then they will need help if Putin decides to take them by force.
~Jeremiah~ AKA DemonDuck
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.

2012 BMW S1000RR Red/White
2000 SV650 Track bike
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14 - Sold
1982 Honda CB750K - Sold

User avatar
fixxervi6
Ride Leader
Ride Leader
Posts: 13832
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm
Achievement count: 36

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by fixxervi6 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:57 am

DemonDuck wrote:If we should sit back and don't worry about it till he attacks a NATO nation then he could take a whole lot of countries. At that point it could be to late. Again maybe he does nothing at all. Honestly the only part that really has me upset is the threats we gave then didn't back up. We look like punks. Also if he uses military to take the rest of Ukraine then I have a problem with it. They vote to be part of Russia then I'm cool. Some of my feelings on this are of course swayed by being in combat zones and seeing first hand the kind of things that happen.

I am only saying that if the majority of Ukraine does not want to be part of Russia then they will need help if Putin decides to take them by force.
Are you willing to kill hundreds or thousands of American soldiers just to keep from looking like punks? Russia isn't some dude on a camel in the desert with an old AK, they can fight back.

And last I heard the majority want to be back with mother Russia (NPR BBC).
K1600

User avatar
DemonDuck
Honorary Club Member
Honorary Club Member
Posts: 7623
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:21 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 40
Location: Litchfield, Il

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by DemonDuck » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:39 am

No I'm not willing to kill any Americans to keep from looking like punks.... I am willing to keep my mouth shut though. Simply don't bluff ... ever. Hold to exactly what you say so that everyone knows you mean it when you say something. If ya don't wanna fight Russia then you don't say there will be consequences if you send in troops.... Instead say nothing at all or say you simply don't care.

As for what the majority wants over there. That is what we should push for if we are going to be involved. Have an election and see what the truth is as far as how many want to be part of Russia. But that is the ideal way and it probably won't ever happen. Even going city by city would be okay so that the ones close to Russia can join Russia while the ones that do not want to join Russia do not have to. If there wasn't a very large anti Russia movement then I don't see how they would have kicked out their old president which was Putin's puppet. No real way to tell how many support staying their own country and how many want to be part of Russia without having real votes though.
~Jeremiah~ AKA DemonDuck
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.

2012 BMW S1000RR Red/White
2000 SV650 Track bike
2008 Kawasaki ZX-14 - Sold
1982 Honda CB750K - Sold

User avatar
Valentina
Club Member
Club Member
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:43 am
Achievement count: 0
Location: Fort Worth

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Valentina » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:51 pm

So what y'all are thinking the airplane shut down? I think the issue between the two countries got worldwide now!!!!
Stop chasing shadows just enjoy the ride.

User avatar
Rhino
Posts: 7793
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:30 am
Riding Style: Intermediate Track Rider
Achievement count: 35
Location: Edge of Arlington

Re: What do you think about Ukrain

Post by Rhino » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:17 am

Yeah, no matter who shot that plane down, it was some bullshit.