Fort Worth Motorcycle Riders

I am just catching up on the church shooting and all. I was interested in other opinions (that count) on the whole deal. On one hand I really don't have any deep ties to the confederate flag and if I had one it would be on the top of my 1969 Charger for those of you old enough to know what I am talking about. However on the other hand if you can stomp on the US flag and burn it and such (even if it does piss me off) then im not sure its ok to ban the confederate flag.

Now for the shooter. I looked at his pictures and as soon as I looked I thought ... yep that looks like an unstable person.

What do yall think about all this?

First, can you qualify what/who's opinions count?

Man, this is a can of worms for sure. I'm sitting here telling myself that maybe it's time to chunk them since it seems to be such a divisive symbol for many, but you bring up a very interesting perspective in regards to the American flag (pisses me off too), and then of course the entire freedom of speech issue and how it plays into the scenario.

This I do believe. It's up to the states themselves, and their collective conscience to decide.

Anyone on this forum counts in my opinion. The opinions I don't care about is everyone on TV lol.

Also it was brought to my attention that they put the flags at half mass over the shooting but the confederate flag was not lowered. Whoever was in charge of lowering the flags should be fired IMHO for that.

The problem as I see it is that some people see the flag only as a symbol of slavery, which it is not. It was the flag of several states. Because slavery was one of the issues of the civil war (and not the main one) now the flag only represents that one particular issue. People get offended too easily these days, and because of that they feel everyone else should believe as they do. Just look at the lady that was offended by a toy sign in Target. Stupid.

I was walking down the grocery isle the other day and I was shocked that there are so many boxes labeled 'crackers'. I can't believe these companies are using a derogatory term in their labeling. As a white male I am completely offended. This needs to stop!

Maybe I'll start a movement.

Banning a flag is as dumb as banning words.

Nanny state.

All the problems in the U.S. and there is so much focus on a dumb ass flag. "watch what the right hand is doing so you don't see what my left hand is doing"

I personally like the Confederate flag, it lets you more easily identify the nutjobs.

Rhino wrote:I personally like the Confederate flag, it lets you more easily identify the nutjobs.

I just look for the Obama stickers.

DemonDuck wrote:Also it was brought to my attention that they put the flags at half mass over the shooting but the confederate flag was not lowered. Whoever was in charge of lowering the flags should be fired IMHO for that.

That was a statement being made.

dufremle wrote:

Rhino wrote:I personally like the Confederate flag, it lets you more easily identify the nutjobs.

I just look for the Obama stickers.

dufremle wrote:I was walking down the grocery isle the other day and I was shocked that there are so many boxes labeled 'crackers'. I can't believe these companies are using a derogatory term in their labeling. As a white male I am completely offended. This needs to stop!

Maybe I'll start a movement.

I'm offended you're offended. And I prefer being called a ranch-flavored cracker please.

DemonDuck wrote:Anyone on this forum counts in my opinion. The opinions I don't care about is everyone on TV lol.

Also it was brought to my attention that they put the flags at half mass over the shooting but the confederate flag was not lowered. Whoever was in charge of lowering the flags should be fired IMHO for that.

Flag etiquette is sorely lacking everywhere and I think the Texas flag is part of the problem. The Texas flag is allowed to fly the same height as the US flag and people forget that no other flag has that honor. There's a hospital on I-20 that has their flag at the same height as the US and Texas flag and I'm sure no disrespect is intended, they just don't know any better.

DarcShadow wrote:

DemonDuck wrote:Anyone on this forum counts in my opinion. The opinions I don't care about is everyone on TV lol.

Also it was brought to my attention that they put the flags at half mass over the shooting but the confederate flag was not lowered. Whoever was in charge of lowering the flags should be fired IMHO for that.

Flag etiquette is sorely lacking everywhere and I think the Texas flag is part of the problem. The Texas flag is allowed to fly the same height as the US flag and people forget that no other flag has that honor. There's a hospital on I-20 that has their flag at the same height as the US and Texas flag and I'm sure no disrespect is intended, they just don't know any better.

The POW flag is another

I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

*update:
Interesting, I'm finding flag code/etiquette that says any flag can be at the same height as the US flag so long as the US flag is to the left of the other flags, (I also found one that said it should be to the right, so not sure which is correct). So the hospital that annoys me ever time I drive past, is actually correct.

Honestly. Its a flag. Peiple who attach the race or hate to it are just looking for a reason to start a fight. Like trench coats back in the 90's. Just cause a kid has a trench coat didnt mean they were gonna shoot up thier school. Just as just cause someone flys a flag doesnt mean they are racist. I think when people start to have an issue with an inanimate object they need to stop and evaluate thier life. Or seek mental help. IMO I think people tend to forget that white people were actually slaves long before black people. But you dont see white people making issues over anything egyptian. Just saying. Amd if it needs to go further can always bring up the holy war and how christanity slaughtered innocent people in the name of god. But people arent offended by the cross. Its convenience. Hypocrisy. And people who have nothing better to do with thier lives and want to jump on a bandwagon.

Envy wrote:Honestly. Its a flag. Peiple who attach the race or hate to it are just looking for a reason to start a fight. Like trench coats back in the 90's. Just cause a kid has a trench coat didnt mean they were gonna shoot up thier school. Just as just cause someone flys a flag doesnt mean they are racist. I think when people start to have an issue with an inanimate object they need to stop and evaluate thier life. Or seek mental help. IMO I think people tend to forget that white people were actually slaves long before black people. But you dont see white people making issues over anything egyptian. Just saying. Amd if it needs to go further can always bring up the holy war and how christanity slaughtered innocent people in the name of god. But people arent offended by the cross. Its convenience. Hypocrisy. And people who have nothing better to do with thier lives and want to jump on a bandwagon.

Well said

Envy wrote:Honestly. Its a flag. Peiple who attach the race or hate to it are just looking for a reason to start a fight. Like trench coats back in the 90's. Just cause a kid has a trench coat didnt mean they were gonna shoot up thier school. Just as just cause someone flys a flag doesnt mean they are racist. I think when people start to have an issue with an inanimate object they need to stop and evaluate thier life. Or seek mental help. IMO I think people tend to forget that white people were actually slaves long before black people. But you dont see white people making issues over anything egyptian. Just saying. Amd if it needs to go further can always bring up the holy war and how christanity slaughtered innocent people in the name of god. But people arent offended by the cross. Its convenience. Hypocrisy. And people who have nothing better to do with thier lives and want to jump on a bandwagon.

The difference is, the Confederate flag is the symbol of a failed government. Like the National Socialist German Worker's Party. You don't see a big public debate in Germany about flying swastikas because it's part of their history.

I'll bet that more than 90% of the people who argue to fly the Confederate flag are anti-black racist.

I'm definitely right of center on politics, maybe not so far right I'm in the bar ditch, but I'm at least somewhere from center of the lane to fog line area. But two years ago we're watching the Stephenville 4th of July parade with the grandkids and who comes marching down the street but the Sons of the Confederacy or some crap like that, dressed to the nines and sporting the Virginia Battle Flag (I think that is the one we generally consider the "conferate flag"). I have to say, rightly or wrongly, there was just something disgusting about it to me.

And this isn't something I'd spent any time thinking or stewing about...it just came across as crass as hell the instant I saw them. We don't have a very large African-American population in Stephenville, with most being students at the university. Still, I just felt bad for any of them that saw it. It would be like someone of Jewish heritage having to watch Sons of the Reicht marching down the street in all their glory.

I'm one of those guys who would always make jokes about "The War of Northern Agression". Not because I'm pro-slavery, or thought it was okay, which it obviously wasn't (and isn't), but simply a fun way to banter back and forth with yankees (excuse me, those of Northern Persuasion). That's just me being my smart-ass self, for better or worse.

All of that being said, I agree with anyone who states that we, as a human race (or Americans, or whatever) take way too much inconsequential stuff way too seriously. I really like the old adage "don't sweat the small stuff...and it's all small stuff".

Envy wrote:Honestly. Its a flag. Peiple who attach the race or hate to it are just looking for a reason to start a fight. Like trench coats back in the 90's. Just cause a kid has a trench coat didnt mean they were gonna shoot up thier school. Just as just cause someone flys a flag doesnt mean they are racist. I think when people start to have an issue with an inanimate object they need to stop and evaluate thier life. Or seek mental help. IMO I think people tend to forget that white people were actually slaves long before black people. But you dont see white people making issues over anything egyptian. Just saying. Amd if it needs to go further can always bring up the holy war and how christanity slaughtered innocent people in the name of god. But people arent offended by the cross. Its convenience. Hypocrisy. And people who have nothing better to do with thier lives and want to jump on a bandwagon.

Exactly.

The problem isn't objects, the problem isn't stereotypes, the problem isn't guns, the problem isn't racism, the problem isn't politics, the problem isn't terrorism, etc. Those are excuses; things to hide behind in the name of hate and insecurity. The problem is people, plain and simple. People choose to justify their feelings at the expense of harming others because they refuse to take personal accountability for their feelings. "I feel bad so it's someone else's fault so I'm going to lash out at someone else." No. No one forces another person to think or feel anything, that's all choice. Expressing them, reacting to them, all choices. All day every day are the excuses used, but the real REASONS behind the way people do what they do, say what they say, think what they think and feel what they feel, that's all inside of themselves and it's all on them. That's being real, but that's asking way too much from people because inside each person's heart lies the truth and the truth is scary. People don't like to face their insecurities, it's easier for them to project those insecure feelings onto others who may even show a mere hint of the things a person doesn't like about him or herself. They hate things about themselves, so if they can liken another person with similar attributes as to why they hate themselves, it makes it easier for them to justify (make excuses for) being hateful and insecure. If you want to know how people really feel about themselves inside, watch carefully how they treat others, listen to how they talk with and about others. Why does it matter? Because for whatever reason we have become a self-entitled, demanding, blame throwing society, when really people need to stop, heal, and for the love of all things good grow the hell up and take accountability for themselves again.

Rhino wrote:

Envy wrote:Honestly. Its a flag. Peiple who attach the race or hate to it are just looking for a reason to start a fight. Like trench coats back in the 90's. Just cause a kid has a trench coat didnt mean they were gonna shoot up thier school. Just as just cause someone flys a flag doesnt mean they are racist. I think when people start to have an issue with an inanimate object they need to stop and evaluate thier life. Or seek mental help. IMO I think people tend to forget that white people were actually slaves long before black people. But you dont see white people making issues over anything egyptian. Just saying. Amd if it needs to go further can always bring up the holy war and how christanity slaughtered innocent people in the name of god. But people arent offended by the cross. Its convenience. Hypocrisy. And people who have nothing better to do with thier lives and want to jump on a bandwagon.

The difference is, the Confederate flag is the symbol of a failed government. Like the National Socialist German Worker's Party. You don't see a big public debate in Germany about flying swastikas because it's part of their history.

I'll bet that more than 90% of the people who argue to fly the Confederate flag are anti-black racist.

Many symbols where used by the Nazies. The German eagle is still a symbol that is still used that they used heavily. I honestly don't care about that specific flag either way. I don't have a problem with government buildings flying it or not flying it. I guess a good way to do it is that if the state feels that the confederate flag is that big a part of their heritage then they could just incorporate it in their state flag then there would be no reason to fly the confederate flag separate. As for a person flying it ..... well there is no reason to try and stop a person from flying that flag and in fact there is plenty of reason not to try to stop them.

Good point BD. Just look at all the men who are clergy and religious zealots who condemn homosexuality but are then caught with male prostitutes and computers full of kiddie porn.

One point I would like to throw out there though... Its illegal to display the Nazi flag in any way, shape or form in some states. I know this because a friend of a friend was restoring a WWII German fighter aircraft and the FAA warned him he was not allowed to paint swastikas on the tail due to the illegality of this symbol.
Its just a symbol - why is it illegal? Isn't free speech defined as allowing someone to say anything they want, even if its utterly hateful? We had the art exhibit here in Texas for illustrations of Mohammad even though Muslims find that abhorrent, why do we turn around and ban a flag with a crooked cross?
It sounds to me like people with power can ban things they dont like. People without power cant ban things they dont like.

RC this is what I am getting at on my reasons not to ban it. If I was to pick what should be illegal between flying the confederate flag or defiling the US flag I would go with defiling the US flag all day long. That is to include the people who use the US flag on a stick for the 4th of July then throw it on the ground like trash when the fireworks are over... Just saying.

RC30rdr wrote:Good point BD. Just look at all the men who are clergy and religious zealots who condemn homosexuality but are then caught with male prostitutes and computers full of kiddie porn.

One point I would like to throw out there though... Its illegal to display the Nazi flag in any way, shape or form in some states. I know this because a friend of a friend was restoring a WWII German fighter aircraft and the FAA warned him he was not allowed to paint swastikas on the tail due to the illegality of this symbol.
Its just a symbol - why is it illegal? Isn't free speech defined as allowing someone to say anything they want, even if its utterly hateful? We had the art exhibit here in Texas for illustrations of Mohammad even though Muslims find that abhorrent, why do we turn around and ban a flag with a crooked cross?
It sounds to me like people with power can ban things they dont like. People without power cant ban things they dont like.

In America, free speech is only free until someone gets offended.

Well, then it's no longer free, because getting offended is apparently the new national pasttime.

You don't have a Constitutionally protected right to say whatever the hell you want without consequence. You never have.

The discussion about the Confederate flag isn't a free speech discussion anyway. You *can* fly whatever flag you want. The public discussion is whether you *should*. And the answer to that is pretty solidly "no". It's not a symbol of anything positive.

The problem is people are going to see what they want to see in a symbol, and that's it. If they don't like what it means to them than no one should like it. Take the swastika for example. It has been used for thousands of years as a religious symbol, and still is. The Nazi's took it and perverted it. Now people only see the bad in it. The Confederate flag never stood for slavery, but that's all that some people want to see in it.