thoughts on changing brake tech

[fixxervi6]

Carbon Ceramic, perform much better than steel when temps get high (brake fade problems etc) reduces unsprung weight by a lot and work well even when cold:

http://www.apriliarsv4parts.com/Starblade.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

discuss

[DarcShadow]

For a serious race bike, cool, for the average joe, eh. It takes a lot to experience brake fade on a bike so the average rider/street rider would have no need for these.

[fixxervi6]

For a serious race bike, cool, for the average joe, eh. It takes a lot to experience brake fade on a bike so the average rider/street rider would have no need for these.

I got brake fade any time I pushed the GSXR hard even with upgraded pads, steel lines and different fluids (steel lines and silicone made a HUGE difference) but still.

[fixxervi6]

I just looked at the price - never mind

[BeautifulDisaster]

I've spent a good amount of time reading up on pros vs. cons after clicking your link (Google). What I'm gathering is that if you have a lot of saddle time and you're going to be doing lots of fast riding (and frankly a lot of track days) then these are going to be far more superior. I like that they handle wet breaking better than most. Breaking time reduced is nice; I would like to experience this myself so I can feel the difference. Honestly, at this point in time, I don't think I would be able to take full advantage of what they can do since I'm not at that riding level; but it will be fun to experience sometime! My tech know-how in regard to bikes is so very limited compared to you guys; so a lot of this stuff is going to be a desire to learn by doing. Now I'm sitting here wondering which type of break pad would you use with these rotors? If you have crap break pads it defeats the purpose I would think. So wouldn't you go all out and get the best break pads so they work in tandem? This site suggested some racing pads but I didn't go off on a breaking pad research tangent yet.

[JTChiTown]

Yeah I'd skip it. Very cool for racing, terrible for street use. The high end Corvettes used to come with that type of setup. They stopped that..... lots of reasons. Mainly once the customer had to pay for a set....

[Firewa11]

Here is my experience with brakes, upgrading brakes, etc.

If your supersport bike has stock rubber brake lines, standard rotors, pads, etc, you will be absolutely fine in pretty much any street riding conditions. You will be fine in level 1 track days, and likely level 2 track days.

When you get into really fast level 2 & 3, or when racing, you're going to want to upgrade your lines. The extra heat generated while being on the brakes will cause the rubber lines to expand a little. What this means in terms of control feel is your brake lever will have to be pulled harder / closer to your bar to get the same stopping power. When your lever is touching your bar, but you're still not getting maximum braking power, that's more dangerous brake fade, something I've felt a couple of times.

Heat is the number one killer of brake performance. So, changing out braking components to go to things like ceramics and composites that cool off faster and manage heat better will give you better performance. The question is, are you ever going to realize the point that you really need that additional performance? Most brake performance issues can be corrected with stainless steel lines, a high-temp brake fluid, a better master cylinder to give you more hydraulic power from your squeeze. If you are to the point of needing ceramic rotors, you're probably racing a very fast novice or expert class anyways.

That all being said, when I was racing I was tipping the scales right around 300 pounds fully geared, so that's a LOT of relying on the brakes to slow me down before corners, so my brakes were getting HOT. I experienced brake fade at level 3 track days in 100 degree weather, until I upgraded to stainless steel lines. The next time I experienced fade was when I glazed a set of Galfer pads, but that's pretty uncommon from what I've read. Other than that, I didn't have any issues.

So, in my experience, most upgrades on bikes are going to be the same as upgrades on anything in life. You can drop thousands of dollars into the performance of your car, but if you're just using it as a daily commuter that performance will never be realized and in turn is a waste. Kinda like folks who put in thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars into their jeeps to make them the ultimate off-road, rock climbing beasts, that will never ride on anything but pavement. At the end of the day, do you want to pay for something that you truly need because you have reached the limits, or because you want something with the ability to take you to the limits you will likely never take it to.

[dufremle]

I have yet to experience brake fade, even when I was riding the track. Not worth it unless you are racing.

[fixxervi6]

I've spent a good amount of time reading up on pros vs. cons after clicking your link (Google). What I'm gathering is that if you have a lot of saddle time and you're going to be doing lots of fast riding (and frankly a lot of track days) then these are going to be far more superior. I like that they handle wet breaking better than most. Breaking time reduced is nice; I would like to experience this myself so I can feel the difference. Honestly, at this point in time, I don't think I would be able to take full advantage of what they can do since I'm not at that riding level; but it will be fun to experience sometime! My tech know-how in regard to bikes is so very limited compared to you guys; so a lot of this stuff is going to be a desire to learn by doing. Now I'm sitting here wondering which type of break pad would you use with these rotors? If you have crap break pads it defeats the purpose I would think. So wouldn't you go all out and get the best break pads so they work in tandem? This site suggested some racing pads but I didn't go off on a breaking pad research tangent yet.

You have to run special pads with them, full conversion could run upward of 3K soooooo I'm gonna skip this one.

Yeah I'd skip it. Very cool for racing, terrible for street use. The high end Corvettes used to come with that type of setup. They stopped that..... lots of reasons. Mainly once the customer had to pay for a set....

They would be great for street use - these are not carbon brakes like they use in GP

Here is my experience with brakes, upgrading brakes, etc.

If your supersport bike has stock rubber brake lines, standard rotors, pads, etc, you will be absolutely fine in pretty much any street riding conditions. You will be fine in level 1 track days, and likely level 2 track days.

When you get into really fast level 2 & 3, or when racing, you're going to want to upgrade your lines. The extra heat generated while being on the brakes will cause the rubber lines to expand a little. What this means in terms of control feel is your brake lever will have to be pulled harder / closer to your bar to get the same stopping power. When your lever is touching your bar, but you're still not getting maximum braking power, that's more dangerous brake fade, something I've felt a couple of times.

Heat is the number one killer of brake performance. So, changing out braking components to go to things like ceramics and composites that cool off faster and manage heat better will give you better performance. The question is, are you ever going to realize the point that you really need that additional performance? Most brake performance issues can be corrected with stainless steel lines, a high-temp brake fluid, a better master cylinder to give you more hydraulic power from your squeeze. If you are to the point of needing ceramic rotors, you're probably racing a very fast novice or expert class anyways.

That all being said, when I was racing I was tipping the scales right around 300 pounds fully geared, so that's a LOT of relying on the brakes to slow me down before corners, so my brakes were getting HOT. I experienced brake fade at level 3 track days in 100 degree weather, until I upgraded to stainless steel lines. The next time I experienced fade was when I glazed a set of Galfer pads, but that's pretty uncommon from what I've read. Other than that, I didn't have any issues.

So, in my experience, most upgrades on bikes are going to be the same as upgrades on anything in life. You can drop thousands of dollars into the performance of your car, but if you're just using it as a daily commuter that performance will never be realized and in turn is a waste. Kinda like folks who put in thousands, even tens of thousands of dollars into their jeeps to make them the ultimate off-road, rock climbing beasts, that will never ride on anything but pavement. At the end of the day, do you want to pay for something that you truly need because you have reached the limits, or because you want something with the ability to take you to the limits you will likely never take it to.

When I first found it I thought the setup was $100 per side - I was like hell why not!

[Firewa11]

When I first found it I thought the setup was $100 per side - I was like hell why not!

Yeah, if it were just rotors I'd be on board too, but for me I look at the whole end-game. Another downside to ceramic rotors is they wear a lot quicker than steel rotors. You very well might have to replace the rotors every time you replace brake pads.

[Firewa11]

I love shots like this when you get to see just how hot brakes really get. I've seared skin putting on tire warmers by accidentally bumping into the rotors after getting off the track. I doubt my factory setup looked like the above pic, but they get damned hot.

[fixxervi6]

When I first found it I thought the setup was $100 per side - I was like hell why not!

Yeah, if it were just rotors I'd be on board too, but for me I look at the whole end-game. Another downside to ceramic rotors is they wear a lot quicker than steel rotors. You very well might have to replace the rotors every time you replace brake pads.

Not true - carbon ceramic last longer

[Striple]

Lots of good comments that I agree with. My personal take on brake components is similar to that on tires: they are an extremely important component of any bike, and being able to rely on them can make the difference between making it and crashing/being injured. Stock brakes are okay for casual street riding, although the inconsistent feedback of rubber brake lines can be annoying. One of the first things I do anytime I get a new bike is to upgrade the brake system from "okay" (i.e., stock) to "good," at a minimum. This can be done without spending a ton of money, by simply installing good brake pads, steel braided lines, high-quality brake fluid, and some speed bleeder valves. All of that can be done for about $250 or less, which is chump change compared to the medical bills/lost wages that can be incurred from an "incident." If it is a track or race bike, then an aftermarket master cylinder is also a must. With the exception of the brake fluid and the pads, those items are all one-time expenses. After that, you have a very solid brake system that will perform exactly the way it should, as long as you maintain it properly and bleed it regularly.

As far as carbon brakes are concerned, their price range makes them attractive only for high-end race teams or wealthy enthusiasts that don't know what else to do with their money. If I had $3k burning a hole in my pocket, I still wouldn't buy them.

[Dragonfly]

Brakes? Why would you need to upgrade brakes? That's just gonna make you go slower! Why do you think they call it the coward lever?

I would start off with training. Using correct techniques can improve braking tremendously, more than you think.

How are you using your brakes? Are you wanting to slow down or stop, or setup your entry speed into the corners? Are you on the brakes early, or late? Are you using your brakes in conjunction with downshifting and/or engine braking? If you spend too much time on the brakes (stock), they will heat up. Hot brakes are less effective. Aftermarket brakes with higher friction rating are better at handling heat. Ceramics can handle a lot of heat, but they need heat in order to work properly (they don't work so good when they're cold). I would address these questions first.

You also may want to look at suspension settings and/or upgrades, as well as tire choice. Both of which can play large factors in braking. These would be the next things I would concentrate on. I'm confident you can remedy your situation by adjusting these first instead of dumping money into more expensive braking systems.

My .02, spend it wisely.

[Firewa11]

Not true - carbon ceramic last longer

Really? I for sure thought the opposite would be true.

[fixxervi6]

As far as carbon brakes are concerned, their price range makes them attractive only for high-end race teams or wealthy enthusiasts that don't know what else to do with their money. If I had $3k burning a hole in my pocket, I still wouldn't buy them.

These are carbon ceramic not just carbon, straight carbon would probably be hell to use, but yea 3K is too much.

Brakes? Why would you need to upgrade brakes? That's just gonna make you go slower! Why do you think they call it the coward lever?

I would start off with training. Using correct techniques can improve braking tremendously, more than you think.

How are you using your brakes? Are you wanting to slow down or stop, or setup your entry speed into the corners? Are you on the brakes early, or late? Are you using your brakes in conjunction with downshifting and/or engine braking? If you spend too much time on the brakes (stock), they will heat up. Hot brakes are less effective. Aftermarket brakes with higher friction rating are better at handling heat. Ceramics can handle a lot of heat, but they need heat in order to work properly (they don't work so good when they're cold). I would address these questions first.

You also may want to look at suspension settings and/or upgrades, as well as tire choice. Both of which can play large factors in braking. These would be the next things I would concentrate on. I'm confident you can remedy your situation by adjusting these first instead of dumping money into more expensive braking systems.

My .02, spend it wisely.

I changed out the pads/fluids/lines on the GSXR and it made a world of difference. The ape comes stock with steel lines and changing the fluid is not an option, I've yet to have a braking issue and I doubt I'll have issues running with the kiddo in level 1 on Sunday but I'd much rather put money in my brakes than I would a slip-on or even a full system for that matter.

I chased an instructure for a few laps at cresson - dude was haulin - we were braking so hard coming into turns the ass end was coming up, I was able to get towed around for a bout a lap and a half before I was able to pull my brake lever all the way to the handle with very little braking power thinking I was going to fly off the track - I had to let him go - after that I upgraded to steel and silicone and it made a night and day difference.

I have experienced brake fade on the street (not on club rides) but I'll leave that a lone.

Ceramic carbon brakes are supposed to work fine when cold and even when wet - these are not the full carbon like the motoGP setups.

At $100 per side I'd be all over this, at 3K I'm very happy with my stock setup - but - I'd rather put $600 into my brakes than $600 into a slip-on. I came stock with good brakes so no plans on any changes at this time, I won't know how they perform until I get at least 1 level 2 day on the bike.

[LonestarCBR]

An interesting article in one of my recent Moto mags about an up and coming young rider who jumped from Moto3 to Moto1 this year. He stated the brakes were the most amazing thing about the top tier bikes. The brakes try to rip you right off the bike.

[Striple]

I'd rather put $600 into my brakes than $600 into a slip-on.

This^^^.

Bad brakes and bad tires will turn squids into liars. ~Aristotle

[LonestarCBR]

Bad brakes and bad tires will turn squids into liars. ~Aristotle

Aha, a philosophizer.

Aristotle...

[Rhino]

Brake fade is God's way of telling you to quit squeezing the coward lever and carry more corner speed, you pussy.

[WillK675]

Brake fade is God's way of telling you to quit squeezing the coward lever and carry more corner speed, you pussy.

This, this is the next quote in my signature.