ECR role call - 9/22 & 9/23

[111]

Just curious what kind of lap times you more experienced riders were recording? Taking all things
into consideration (my third track day, riding stock gsxr 600, riding level 1, and the fact that this wasn't a race) I recorded 2:20-25, which I think is not too bad.

[DemonDuck]

I have no idea on mine. Whatever my times might have been they for sure could have been faster if I was using the bike on the straights..... or maybe they would be worse because of me screwing up my corner entry... lol. Anyway at some point I might have a half arse answer for ya on my times.

[Rhino]

I should really get a lap timer at some point to figure out what's working for me and what isn't.

Right now I judge my speed in certain sections by how fast I'm going at the end of a straight, or how fast I'm going coming out of a turn. Like at ECR, if I'm hitting 110 at the braking point for turn 7, I did 6 well (for me). At Cresson, if I come out of Wagon Wheel at 70 I did well (for me).

[DarcShadow]

Level 3 guys run ECR in the 1:55-2:05 range.

[Striple]

Lap timers are very helpful for evaluating your lap performance, but there are a couple of drawbacks to using them. They can hide bad lines and especially bad body positioning, and they tend to shift the focus from those items to lap times. There are some fast guys in L2 (and even a few in L3) that are using bad form, and are more interested in shaving off a second or two than they are in changing their form.

At ECR, L2 lap times tend to be in the :2Xs, with faster guys running in the :1Xs. Fast L3 lap times are around :05s, with some of the really fast guys running sub- 2:00.

Just curious what kind of lap times you more experienced riders were recording? Taking all things
into consideration (my third track day, riding stock gsxr 600, riding level 1, and the fact that this wasn't a race) I recorded 2:20-25, which I think is not too bad.

Your lap times are very good for having done only three track days. You may want to consider getting an instructor to evaluate you to see if you're ready for L2. I think its a good idea to really get the basics (body position, line, throttle control, etc.) down pretty well before moving up, as that will keep you safe when you're beginning to add a lot of speed. The intermediate level tends to be the craziest, because the range of rider skills is incredibly broad. The difference in closing speeds between the upper L2 rider and the recent L1 graduate can be significant. Don't rush moving out of L1, it will serve you well to learn the basics.

[111]

Your lap times are very good for having done only three track days. You may want to consider getting an instructor to evaluate you to see if you're ready for L2. I think its a good idea to really get the basics (body position, line, throttle control, etc.) down pretty well before moving up, as that will keep you safe when you're beginning to add a lot of speed. The intermediate level tends to be the craziest, because the range of rider skills is incredibly broad. The difference in closing speeds between the upper L2 rider and the recent L1 graduate can be significant. Don't rush moving out of L1, it will serve you well to learn the basics.

I think I have the basics down. however, I plan on staying in L1 for a little while longer. I want to become smoother, more consistent, and work on my corner entries more before moving up. Tony, followed me and then had me follow him for a few laps. He got a rush out of me keeping up with him for the most part.

[milesmiles]

I want to become smoother.

THIS! Smooth = fast and you won't even know your dropping your lap times. Happens all the time

[fixxervi6]

Come to the dark side, it's quicker, stupid fast > smooth

(for those that are on the outside, I'm kinda joking here)

[111]

Right now I judge my speed in certain sections by how fast I'm going at the end of a straight, or how fast I'm going coming out of a turn. Like at ECR, if I'm hitting 110 at the braking point for turn 7, I did 6 well (for me). At Cresson, if I come out of Wagon Wheel at 70 I did well (for me).

I've been doing the same thing and paying little attention to actual lap time. I didnt even check my laptimes until last night for the first time just out of curiousity.


I think I am going to need to get some different tires than these bridgestone battlax pretty soon. They have been alright for me up until saturday. I thought I had to drop the pressure too much just to get them warm up....that and some tire warmers would probably help alot.

[shilka99]

I want to become smoother.

THIS! Smooth = fast and you won't even know your dropping your lap times. Happens all the time

Where did I hear this before?
Oh yeah, here:


This worked for me.
On my SV the best I recorded was a 2:15. On the 666 bike I'm in the 2:03-2:05 range when I'm not busy teaching, which was only about 5 laps this weekend.

[Striple]

I think I am going to need to get some different tires than these bridgestone battlax pretty soon. They have been alright for me up until saturday. I thought I had to drop the pressure too much just to get them warm up....that and some tire warmers would probably help alot.

I would not worry about tire warmers at that stage. Get some high-quality street tires (Michelin Pilot Power 2CT, Dunlop Q2, or therelike) and continue to focus on the basics. Like everything else, practice (in this case track time) is going to make you better on the track. Staying a bit longer in L1 may also be a good idea, since it is going to make it much easier for you to focus on the basics. There are some fast guys in L2, and the temptation to try and keep up with them may interfere with your plans of focusing on technique, rather than speed or lap times.

[milesmiles]

lol shaun, yea that's where i heard it

[111]

There are some fast guys in L2, and the temptation to try and keep up with them may interfere with your plans of focusing on technique, rather than speed or lap times.

Great advice, thanks Striple.

[DarcShadow]

Yeah, forget about the warmers. Unless you are running slicks and/or going straight from your pit to the track and hammering it as hard as you can right out of pit lane you loose all the benifits of warmers. The time it takes to get from your pit, to the start, wait for the marshel to let you go is more then enough time for the tires to cool back down to about the temp they'd be if you just left the bike parked in the sun. And unless you want/need to go 100% right off the start you can get your tires up to temp in about half a lap, maybe a full lap.

For the most part, at a trackday school such as RS, tire warmers are more a mental then then a real world thing. There are lots of really fast guys that don't use warmers for trackdays. Now race days, that's another thing, although they typically do a warmup lap I believe, so between that and the heat of the texas sun there's probably a good arguement to be made that they are not needed there either.

[Telomere]

If you are wondering why Striple used tire warmers, it is because he has race tires on his bike. He is a CMRA racer. Back when he was just starting out, he didn't use warmers.

[Striple]

@ 111 -

One more thing. If you do track days regularly, you will get better and faster over time. Sometimes I did let myself get frustrated with my progress, and there is really no need in doing so. Ryan Max Johnson, who ruled the CMRA novice SV classes last year and was promoted to expert for this season, reminded me to enjoy the journey. I found that to be excellent advice, so I'll pass it on to you.

Unless you are running slicks and/or going straight from your pit to the track and hammering it as hard as you can right out of pit lane you loose all the benifits of warmers. The time it takes to get from your pit, to the start, wait for the marshel to let you go is more then enough time for the tires to cool back down to about the temp they'd be if you just left the bike parked in the sun. And unless you want/need to go 100% right off the start you can get your tires up to temp in about half a lap, maybe a full lap.

For the most part, at a trackday school such as RS, tire warmers are more a mental then then a real world thing. There are lots of really fast guys that don't use warmers for trackdays. Now race days, that's another thing, although they typically do a warmup lap I believe, so between that and the heat of the texas sun there's probably a good arguement to be made that they are not needed there either.

I disagree with that. Even with warmers, you should not hammer it coming out of the pits, but rather keep the speed at a moderate level for a few turns. Also, unless you're one of the first guys to answer the staging call, the brief wait at pit-out is usually not long enough to significantly cool down your tires. The warm-up lap before races serves to warm up the riders and tires, and to provide a look at the current track conditions. There is a very good reason why you will not find any racers without tire warmers, regardless whether it is August or November in Texas.

I do agree that using high performance tires provides a mental benefit. I feel much more sane riding on race tires than otherwise.

[DarcShadow]

I disagree with that. Even with warmers, you should not hammer it coming out of the pits, but rather keep the speed at a moderate level for a few turns.

Well then you are agreeing with me, at least to a small extent. If your tires were warm and up to temp you wouldn't need to take it easy for a turn or two. Again though, we're talking about a school where you don't need to be going balls to the wall the very first lap.

It would be interesting to get a few bikes setup with temp sensors on the tires that would record them temps all day and see how simulare bikes, same tires, compair with and without warmers being used. I'm not saying they are not of some use in a race situation, but I bet their benifits are not as great as most believe and it's as much mental as it is physical.

[Striple]

I know what you're saying, Matt, but race tires are quite different from street tires. In race tires, the chemistry of the curing process is incomplete in the mold, and the high operating temperature drives forward the cure reaction under use, providing extreme amounts of traction. This also means that if a race tire is not properly heated, that reaction does not occur, causing the tire to be (much) slicker than a cold street tire. This is why people use tire warmers with race tires. Once a race tire is being operated at temperature, it gives you roughly about ten hard laps (not sessions!), before the tire begins to steadily and gradually decline. That longevity is even worse with qualifying tires.

A street tire is much less slick when cold, heats up faster, and obviously has a much greater longevity. As a trade-off, even the best street tires do not provide nearly the same amount of traction that race tires give you. That said, some of today's street tires are capable of outperforming the race tires of years ago.

If you go to the races, you won't find anyone who is skipping out on using tire warmers in favor of letting the tires heat up in the TX sun (even in July/August). And yes -- the mental aspect is undeniable, but that goes with anything on your bike. I choose to ride a bike with an engine that is unlikely to blow up anytime soon, and with decent brakes and good pads, because it certainly wouldn't help me if I had to worry about those components every time I lean the bike into a turn. Same with the tires. I know they are going to be up to full operating temperature in just a few turns, after which I won't have to worry much about their performance.

[Rhino]

There are some fast guys in L2, and the temptation to try and keep up with them may interfere with your plans of focusing on technique, rather than speed or lap times.

God, a thousand times this.

I wasted a track day at Cresson trying to keep up with club members in L2 and feeling like a total retard because I was slower.

At ECR last weekend I just focused on myself and had a really fantastic track day. I was still slow, but I started L1 as the slowest guy as well and progressed to being faster. I'm trying to do the same thing now, focusing on the basics and getting smoother. Lap times will come with that.

[DemonDuck]

I say move up when you are not trying to be faster than everyone yet you still have to keep going to the pit to allow for room in front of you.

[Rhino]

I say move up when you are not trying to be faster than everyone yet you still have to keep going to the pit to allow for room in front of you.

Yeah, this is good advice, it's when I decided to move up. I was either passing everybody or getting stuck when people were following "creative" lines without really trying in L1, and only getting passed by the very fastest guys who shouldn't have been in L1 anyway.

At minimum, that will let you hang with the slow kids in L2.

[DarcShadow]

Updating my list of who when to what trackdays.

Saturday
Striple
Rhino
Miles
2track
Fish1
Steven
Michael
Fixxer(work)
Telomere(work)
Shaun

Sunday
DemonDuck
Rhino(work)
Fixxer(work
Shaun

Did I get that all right?

[fixxervi6]

correct for me, I worked both days.

[Telomere]

El Diabro worked on Sunday.

[shilka99]

remember i'm not a paying customer - you should add (work) to my name.