MSRC Roll Call - May 5th and 6th

[Dragonfly]

Hey all this analyzing of tires, makes me wonder what do you guys think of these?

I think they need to be resized.

I took these pics with my phone and uploaded them direct from my phone. they look normal to me from both my phone and my laptop.

[fixxervi6]

And as for the 'marbles' you see on the front tire, take a look at a level 3 riders front tire, and then compare this to a Level 1 rider who was on the same track in the previous session. There will be a huge difference, and yet the 2 riders were on the same track, following the same lines, only minutes apart. Why is there such a difference?

Wait I think I know

It can't be the lines, I took some odd ball ass lines when I was out playing around and my tires stayed pretty clean. They didn't get gummed up until I dropped to level one. When looking my bike over I am finding rubber in odd places, is it that the level 3 guys go fast enough to sling the shit off, so the tires stay clean ?

That is all I can think of that is different between my tires being pretty clean to all Boogared up, speed. That was the only thing that changed.

Am I right?

[Dragonfly]

Hey all this analyzing of tires, makes me wonder what do you guys think of these?

I think they need to be resized.

I took these pics with my phone and uploaded them direct from my phone. they look normal to me from both my phone and my laptop.

Ok, I resized them and reloaded them, How about now?

[fixxervi6]

@Dragonfly - the pics looked fine for me before, still do.

What pressures where you running in your tires?

@miles, lets see those tires, curious to see what your front tire looks like, you were at a higher pressure right?

[Dragonfly]

I was running 30psi front, 29psi rear.

[milesmiles]

Yes psi was at 31/31 my tires are still worn but they don't look like they did. I've done a lot of riding since then lol. Pics would represent them well

[fixxervi6]

Ok talking to some other guys about my tires and what I was feeling, they said no way were my tires spinning up at all, no signs of it. And when I discribed the "spin up" they said that was not spin up, but something called "pumping" and it's just a rear suspension issue.

They said my tires looked fine, just keep doing whatever I've been doing, just do it faster.

[Dragonfly]

Ok talking to some other guys about my tires and what I was feeling, they said no way were my tires spinning up at all, no signs of it. And when I discribed the "spin up" they said that was not spin up, but something called "pumping" and it's just a rear suspension issue.

They said my tires looked fine, just keep doing whatever I've been doing, just do it faster.

Like rear end chatter?

[fixxervi6]

Ok talking to some other guys about my tires and what I was feeling, they said no way were my tires spinning up at all, no signs of it. And when I discribed the "spin up" they said that was not spin up, but something called "pumping" and it's just a rear suspension issue.

They said my tires looked fine, just keep doing whatever I've been doing, just do it faster.

Like rear end chatter?

Not chatter, let me link up a video that demonstrates it, that'll make more sense then me trying to describe it.

Here, happens twice, :40 and 2:15, this pump was bad and combined with a spin up, mine wasn't this bad but the motion was exactly the same.



edit: the description talks about chatter so maybe pumping and chatter are the same thing.

Could this be something I just tell roger and he does some magic for me and it goes away? Or am I just too damn fat and need better suspension to lug my manly self around?

[Rhino]

Are you talking about where the bike wiggles when driving out of the corners? That looked like head shake to me. Sometimes it's a suspension thing (can be too much rebound damping in the front) and sometimes it's just because you're slightly lifting your front wheel as you drive out, which can be a suspension thing or can be a "you're driving a 750 hard" thing.

My Speed Four started doing that when I concentrated on going WOT on corner exits. My rear shock is a mushy mess and Roger even asked if I was having a hard time keeping my front end down. When I go WOT, the bike squats to the rear, my weight shifts backwards, and the front wheel tries to come up. When it starts skipping around on the ground, the bike wiggles just like in that video.

[Firewa11]

That's a little bit of head shake caused by a little bit of slip. Look at when it happens, you're going across a changing in track surface (tar stripes, patches, etc). You're hard on the gas and hitting patches of different track material, causing the bike to get upset slightly from both the bumps and from the tires passing a material that's probably a bit more gooey than the rest of the track, and also probably a bit bumpy, causing the tires to spin up and 'load' a bit more for a split second and then you hit the regular track surface again, not to mention the bump itself. These things cause a bit of oscillation which translates into the head shake, which is why steering dampers are important and do such a great job of keeping you on your bike!

This is perfectly normal as far as I'm concerned, this happened to me all the time, even more so out at ECR with all of the patches. You can tweak your suspension but it won't do that much for you. Don't think messing with your tire pressures or anything will help either. This is just part of the experience IMHO.

*edit - Oh, this is another reason why being able to change up your lines to track conditions is important as well. I don't think I ever took the same lines at different track days out at ECR with them constantly patching the track. Avoiding the slippery spots... etc.

[Rhino]

Argh. Withdrawal has set in.

Now that my legs work again, all I want to do is be on the track. I was just starting to get the hang of WOT drive-outs and I want more. MORE!!!



Upside is, I'll be in L2 with you guys the rest of the season. I felt I was ready and an instructor confirmed. I'll probably be one of the slow ones, but I don't care. That's how I learned in L1.

Firewa11, random question for you--how do you handle rear tire spin-ups? Get the back inline and roll off a little? Or do you just roll off and hope for the best?

[fixxervi6]

That's a little bit of head shake caused by a little bit of slip. Look at when it happens, you're going across a changing in track surface (tar stripes, patches, etc). You're hard on the gas and hitting patches of different track material, causing the bike to get upset slightly from both the bumps and from the tires passing a material that's probably a bit more gooey than the rest of the track, and also probably a bit bumpy, causing the tires to spin up and 'load' a bit more for a split second and then you hit the regular track surface again, not to mention the bump itself. These things cause a bit of oscillation which translates into the head shake, which is why steering dampers are important and do such a great job of keeping you on your bike!

This is perfectly normal as far as I'm concerned, this happened to me all the time, even more so out at ECR with all of the patches. You can tweak your suspension but it won't do that much for you. Don't think messing with your tire pressures or anything will help either. This is just part of the experience IMHO.

I was getting it pulling out of wagon wheel, not crossing any patches just laying on the throttle real hard trying to get up on the inside on that straight to get a wheel up and start my tip in before the guy in front of me. (so that it's not an inside pass if that makes sense, to get a wheel up and out front just enough to tip in before them so that I'm not gotta get a black flag).

I get shake all over the place, you can see a real bad one when I did my dick-bag move on Striple in the video, that feeling is entirely different than the one where the ass end does that strange thing like in the video. All the feeling was coming from the rear tire not the front end, the front stayed planted and solid while the rear did it's dance so I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

In my ECR video's you can see that shake/wiggle pulling out of some of the turns and it was clearly due to the surface of the track, and I didn't even think twice about it, just keep the hammer down and go, what I was getting out of wagon wheel felt entirely different.

[DarcShadow]

Hey all this analyzing of tires, makes me wonder what do you guys think of these?

I would say they look pretty close to the ideal photos from that video shaun posted. The one photo does have a slight simularity to the cold tear photo but not nearly as bad. Then again what do I know? I'm just guessing at this point.

[shilka99]

If the tire doesnt reach that temperature sweet spot and stays colder for the whole session, it wont wear at all and you'll be able to do 20 track days on 1 set of tires. But you'll also have less grip and less 'feel' in the tires, resulting in lower corner speeds, lower confidence and longer lap times.
Conversely, if the tire gets too hot, it will grip like glue as it heats up and passes through the sweet spot, then as it gets hotter and starts to overheat, the rubber will start to melt in globs and be literally ripped off the carcass. This will result in a tire that feels greasy in the corners and especially corner exits, and will be torn to shreds in only a few laps.

The first part of this statement isn't correct.

Actually Kegan, in the context of Ridesmart, and this forum, sure it is. Its very possible for an over inflated tire to run ECR all day and look like it just came back from *$. I see it all the time when I do tech inspections at Ridesmart. It's become such an issue Dave suggested that we make pressure checks a part of the morning inspection. New riders on smaller bikes like the Ninja 250, SV650 and even big bikes like a particular FJR I remember, show up with what their riders have been told are the best pressures (best for longevity of course) and when I advise them to make adjustments they say "But I was here yesterday and no one said anything about that." To look at these tires you'd swear it had never been on track before. It even happens on the r1/gsxr/ninja brigade when they're ridden by novices who are not aggressive enough to stress their tires, or even warm them up.
I remember a particular day last year at Cresson when a student I had on Saturday for the 1.7 came to me for tech inspection before doing the 1.3 on Sunday. I asked him if he'd fitted new tires overnight and he looked at me weird - he thought I'd forgotten that I worked with him the day before. In fact the only reason I asked was because I remembered his riding style from the day before and was surprised to see his tires were so clean.
The kicker here? - he crashed in the first lap of the first session while exiting the hairpin. While analyzing the crash we found it was his first time on the 1.3, and he thought that while going so slow it was safe to yank the throttle open as we saw him do in the tank mounted gopro video. I asked what his pressures were. He said the sales guy who sold him the bike only a few weeks prior said the best pressure to use was 40psi.

So yes, in the case of AFM and WSMC (RIP) and CVMRA racers, good Level 2 and most Level 3 riders, cold tearing will make a mess of a tire. But for novices at a track day, particularly those on smaller bikes, cold tearing is the least of their problems.

[fireblade]

Firewa11, random question for you--how do you handle rear tire spin-ups? Get the back inline and roll off a little? Or do you just roll off and hope for the best?

I know I learned from Shaun and riding dirt bikes with him and talking about track days. Choping the throttle can upset the bike really bad, depending on you lean angle and speed, it could toss you off the high side of the bike. I know I've had it once and came thru it with a load in my pants but still upright and riding. I just stayed on the throttle and just changed my body position(leaned off the bike more, got my ass off the seat, stood the bike up a very little) and the bike did its thing and hooked back up and off i went to the pits to change my undies.

[fixxervi6]

My slide experiences:

Every time I've spun up and slid (street), it happens so fast the bike usually fixes itself before I even have a chance to chop the throttle much less do anything else. Usually polished pavement is the problem (and my right wrist ), tar snakes just cause a wiggle and I stay in it.

I lost my front end at cresson once (slid out then tucked), cold tires for the speed, my head was going straight to the pavement fast and I had just enough time to think "this is it" and the bike stood up again on its own THEN I chopped the throttle and shit my pants, but I was upright so it was ok at that point, it just happened so damn fast, I'm not sure there is any "reaction" I could consciously do to save a bike in that state, its just sooooo fast.

In the morning sessions I spin up the rear in the corners, just getting in the throttle too quick for cold tires on a cold track, and I've spun it up clear through the exit of the turn from the apex, both ECR and Cresson. I know because the RPM's climb suddenly and the bike starts tracking odd, and I can feel it hook back up at the exit of the turn because it upsets the bike and the RPM's drop. Keep it in perspective, I'm not talking about a rossi power slide bringing the smoke, nothing to that degree but a power slide none the less. I just go static throttle till it hooks back up and then continue on.

I don't know what the correct thing to do is, but holding static throttle works for that for me in those cases, maybe it's been dumb luck.

SHAUN, was I right about the marbles?

[Dragonfly]

Now that my legs work again, all I want to do is be on the track.

Man I'm getting old. My legs are still killing me, especially the left leg. I haven't felt this bad after a trackday, without having wrecked that is. If I had done both the 1.3 and 1.7 courses I would be dead.

[Telomere]

Man I'm getting old. My legs are still killing me, especially the left leg. I haven't felt this bad after a trackday, without having wrecked that is. If I had done both the 1.3 and 1.7 courses I would be dead.

Just out of practice...not old. Guess that means you need to get out and do some more trackdays . I saw how DS, Striple and Rhino seems wiped out on Sunday after riding the 1.3. It makes me want to think twice about riding both days next month.

[DarcShadow]

Eh, I would of looked that way after one or two, doesn't matter. Big problem is that that was the first hard riding I've done since probably barber/dragon of last year. I've hardly even been on my bike over the winter. This is the sorest I've been since probably my first trackday on the Daytona in 2005.

[Dragonfly]

Eh, I would of looked that way after one or two, doesn't matter. Big problem is that that was the first hard riding I've done since probably barber/dragon of last year. I've hardly even been on my bike over the winter. This is the sorest I've been since probably my first trackday on the Daytona in 2005.

Makes me feel better to know I'm not the only one still feeling sore.

[fixxervi6]

My calf muscles still hurt.

[milesmiles]

heh old guys! And i'm in the worse shape of my life!

[DarcShadow]

In or out of shape got nothing to do with it, just a fact that I made use of some muscles that have not been used in well over 6 months.

[milesmiles]

I hear ya, yeah the next day i was hurting pretty good and thinking the same thing about muscles i didn't even know i had