Thoughts on females in the infantry.

[DarcShadow]

I wouldn't say hard wired, socially engineered perhaps. There are and have been native tribes where the women are the dominate gender and the men do "the womanly" things. It's all a matter of what the social norm is that you are raised in.

[Rhino]

Don't forget though, infantrywomen are armed.

[fixxervi6]

If they could pass all of the same qualifications and then formed female only units I'd be ok with that.

[DarcShadow]

Now THAT would be scary!

[Stardog]

...and all of the orders in the world won't change that.

**cough** Sandwich, hold the mayo..

[Stardog]

Now THAT would be scary!

Especially since women align to one anothers' cycles when they spent that much time together. RED TEAM GO!!!

[Striple]

Striple would you say that females should be able to box men in professional boxing? Why don't we have that or females in the NFL, NBA? I think it is because there is a physical difference between a woman and a man. Yes there is difference between 2 men but not much difference between 2 men of the same height, weight, physical fitness and training.

Dude, I'm a huge proponent of women playing in the MLB! That sport needs whatever it can get to become more exciting!!

But yes, I do see your point. The strongest man is going to be physically stronger than the strongest woman. Of course, the military isn't exactly a power-lifting competition, nor is bulkiness, pure strength, or any other individual item alone the single determining factor of a good soldier. As you yourself brought up earlier in this thread, if a single standard could be applied to all (and yes, without lowering it!), then there is no reason why women should no be able to fight at the front lines. Set the bar to 'x', and then let everyone who meets those requirements have a shot at it. It doesn't make any sense to exclude women who can meet 'x', while including men that perform equally. Again, this has been done for a long time in other armies, without the projected downfall of team red (nice one, 84!) due to changing social dynamics and all that other jazz.

Fortunately, it looks like they may just "...ignore, "force" them, "educate" them..." anyway, so we may soon see whether it is in fact a bad idea or not.

[Stardog82]

Gawd. Dammit. Eighty. Four.

[DemonDuck]

We will see soon but it was already shown to be a bad idea in Isreal. Striple you are right and I want females to be in the MLB as well! Also I think I said it a little wrong when I was talking about those sports... they are not banned from the sports but they just dont do it. A female can do it but as far as I know none have done it. There is a reason for this. I personally could not watch a female fight a male and that is where the problems really come in. I hold the door open and pull out chairs and all that kind of stuff. I think there are still men that do these things out of respect and moral standards. Take that to the field and things get messy. You get into a situation that you are fighting the enemy hand to hand for a couple of minutes and a guy will try to help the woman even if it is self sacrafice when she didnt even need the help. It is automatic for us.

Ladies have you ever had a guy step in to help you in a verbal fight or whatever when you didnt need it? Guys have you ever watched a guy hit a girl? My brother in law spanked my sister hard on her birthday and he almost did not make it out of the freaking house. She had tears and I could only see red. Being with a female day in and day out training the way we do in the military and expecially in the field the woman is the same as your sister. Ever been in a real hand to hand combat? I can tell you that when it is REAL there is a place for a little anger but you have to be able to control it. You have to keep your head about you so you can take advantage of mistakes that the enemy makes. Not sure I could keep the same control if my sister got gutted.

All of that stuff said I can still get behind it if the standards do not change. As long as they dont lower the standards and do not make them different for females then I am good. Again I am almost 100% sure this will not be the case but if it is then there wont be many females in the infantry.

Then the part that comes after allowing them in is the court martial for getting preg. Lots of resistance to that I am sure but if a female gets preg while deployed or after the unit has orders for deployment then she should face court martial and the male that got her preg as well if he is deployed with her. Now of course this should not be the case with rape but other than that .... done deal. No different than shooting yourself in the leg so you dont have to go.

And the draft thing.

[Rhino]

My brother in law spanked my sister hard on her birthday and he almost did not make it out of the freaking house. She had tears and I could only see red.

No spanking? That's no fun.

[Grinner]

First...lowering standards for the "betterment of the whole" is a proven disaster all across society. Prime example is our school system failure. So in the aspect of all of this I agree with the Duck, as long as women are held to the same current standards as the men, then more power to them. I am a huge supporter of women getting involved in anything that they are willing to go above and beyond to achieve in a male dominated aspect. In this case, I would probably watch more sports just cause it wouldnt be a bunch o guys scramblin around playin grabass with each other. I am a man damnit and I Lovez me some boobs and kitty. Just makes things more interesting to me than a sausage party!

Secondly...I say give em a gun, point to a group of enemy, and tell em they called her a cunt! Then just break out a lawn chair and watch her work!
(wilbur...try not to fall outta your chair from laughin so hard!)

[WillK675]

Secondly...I say give em a gun, point to a group of enemy, and tell em they called her a cunt! Then just break out a lawn chair and watch her work!
(wilbur...try not to fall outta your chair from laughin so hard!)

Yeah that'd work, but if you want a real bloody show, tell her they said the following about her... "That F'ing C needs to get back in the kitchen where she belongs."

[Grinner]

Secondly...I say give em a gun, point to a group of enemy, and tell em they called her a cunt! Then just break out a lawn chair and watch her work!
(wilbur...try not to fall outta your chair from laughin so hard!)

Yeah that'd work, but if you want a real bloody show, tell her they said the following about her... "That F'ing C needs to get back in the kitchen where she belongs."

All I see from that one is a mushroom cloud!

[Polokid69]

If they could pass all of the same qualifications and then formed female only units I'd be ok with that.

same here

[El Diabro]

I'm of the idea of if they pass the requirements, then let them. Like Striple said, women have been in armies all across the globe, including countries like Russia, and Israel. I've known women who are weak and simple, just like I've known men who are the same. I've also known a few tough guys, and a few tough women that I'd put equal amount on in a fair fight. If it's a decision you make to join up and you make it, then by all means, go for it. So while I don't see full fledged all women combat units, I do see them in roles they can perform. I wouldn't worry about a woman trying to drag me out of firefight as I wouldn't be thinking that...a soldier's job isn't to die defending his country, it's to make the enemy die for defending theirs

[Polokid69]

I'm of the idea of if they pass the requirements, then let them. Like Striple said, women have been in armies all across the globe, including countries like Russia, and Israel. I've known women who are weak and simple, just like I've known men who are the same. I've also known a few tough guys, and a few tough women that I'd put equal amount on in a fair fight. If it's a decision you make to join up and you make it, then by all means, go for it. So while I don't see full fledged all women combat units, I do see them in roles they can perform. I wouldn't worry about a woman trying to drag me out of firefight as I wouldn't be thinking that...a soldier's job isn't to die defending his country, it's to make the enemy die for defending theirs

[DemonDuck]

The biggest concern I still have is that they will lower the requirements so that it is "fair" for all genders. Also there will be a whole mess of court martial and lower deployment readiness. And of course the draft that I don't want my girls to be required to sign up for.

[Michael]

Infantry doesn't spend all day dragging people out of things, and you don't have to be strong to pull a trigger.

I was an infantryman for 24 years on active duty, 16 years on jump status. Three of those years I was a Drill Sgt. at Ft. Jackson with 50% females, and three years as the ROTC senior military science instructor at Princeton University with female cadets.

As an example of what the light infantry is like, just before one three week mission in Afghanistan in '05 which was spent in the mountains along Pakistan living outdoors where vehicles could not get to, the Army was doing some kind of study and weighed our rucksacks. Mine was right at 130 pounds and I was a platoon sergeant so it was not the heaviest. Rucks this ridiculous you cannot put on your back alone. One or two buddies have to help you strap it on. One mortar round, extra 5.56 and 7.62, AT-4 or LAW antitank weapon, C4, weapons cleaning kit, MRE's, clothing, sleeping gear, ect. Then you add another 50 or so pounds of body armor, helmet, full magazine pouches, frags, smoke grenades, radio, night vision, water, ect. Then you have your weapon that never leaves your hands. If you're a M240 gunner, assistant gunner, ammo bearer, RTO or a mortar man you're a freaking pack mule. Then you walk up and down mountains in rocky terrain, live in mud, rain, snow, 20 degree weather, whatever. If you get a frago that says you have 6 hours to move from A to B then you carry that weight for 6 hours. And be ready to fight in a split second and be able to carry your buddy down the mountain with his and your gear down to the PZ for medvac after he gets shot so he doesn't die. If your toes and heels are covered with blisters and bleeding and your toenails are falling off from trenchfoot you freaking suck it up and continue mission. If you can't hang you're detrimental to the mission and a danger to your buddies. Many times there were when we would go a couple of days without sleep guys would be hallucinating and falling asleep while walking. If you're tactical and have to piss or shit, you do it right there in front of everyone. Need to change uniforms? In front of everyone. You strip and wipe yourself down with baby wipes in front of everyone for a "shower". Unless you want to catch a disease. I won't even go into the things you have to do and experience when you make contact with the enemy. This is the way you live your life for years however long you are in for.

To shoot down one comparison, the IDF who I have trained with (with female infantry) does not go to foreign lands and carry 150-200 pounds for days and weeks at a time. They keep their weapon and their gear at home with them, go to their unit, get on trucks and do their mission in an urban environment for the most part. Last I checked, the Canadian army had like 8 female infantrymen. or whatever they call them. I've seen their infantry in Afghanistan and Iraq. Didn't see any females but they pretty much live in a FOB and go out on short missions on vehicles. Being able to pull a trigger is only a tiny part of what is required of you as a US infantryman. Hell you can go an entire career without ever having to shoot at a human target.

At Ft Jackson basic training, the final road march was 12 miles and they carried 15 pound rucks (infantry AIT is 50 pounds for 18 miles unless it's changed). It was drama central, tears were flowing. Males and females but mostly the girls. I do not know one female I had, out of hundreds, that could have lived the life in a light infantry unit. Or would have wanted to. One of the best soldiers I saw in 24 years was a reserve female drill sgt but she admitted she couldn't have lived that life. Then if you get assigned to an airborne infantry unit that's a whole other animal altogether.

If/when they allow females in the infantry, the training standards will be lowered no doubt. In no way, shape or form will the political BS in the Pentagon have females train to the current male standard. That's just the way it works. Even then, AIT at Ft Benning is nothing like life in a real infantry unit. The standards for schools infantrymen get to be competitive for promotion, like Ranger, will be lowered no doubt. Assuming this happens, I am predicting the number of females who volunteer and end up making it all the way to an infantry brigade will be only a small handful, not enough to even form a platoon, and that they will be slotted for jobs like the battalion commanders driver or work in the training or schools section at the Bn HQ which are cush jobs that infantrymen are used for. But of course they'll get 90% of the press coverage

[Telomere]

I was an infantryman for 24 years on active duty, 16 years on jump status. Three of those years I was a Drill Sgt. at Ft. Jackson with 50% females, and three years as the ROTC senior military science instructor at Princeton University with female cadets.

What years were you a Drill SGT at Fort Jackson?

[Michael]

What years were you a Drill SGT at Fort Jackson?

D Co. 3-13 '99-'02

[Telomere]

What years were you a Drill SGT at Fort Jackson?

D Co. 3-13 '99-'02

I was there summer of '95 and I just remember being a Delta Dog...I don't remember any other info but that is cool though.

I enjoyed it (I don't know if that is a good thing or not).

[Michael]

Could have been the same company. We were the "Delta Dawgs" haha

[Telomere]

Maybe that is how it spelt...I just remember saying the chant while in formation.

[Michael]

I'm almost certain it was the same company. I don't believe any units there are allowed to have the same name. You had it harder back then. The standards have been lowered quite a bit since '95 for everyone.

[fixxervi6]

Could have been the same company. We were the "Delta Dawgs" haha

Long time no see

Good post, and that is why I'm against women in the infantry. It's one thing to look at it on paper and show video of them in training camp but when it comes time to put the rubber to the road, shit gets real and I don't see women holding up in that environment. I'm sure some can because there are ALWAYS exceptions but still.

I'm curious on your views on how the MEN change when a female is introduced into the social dynamics of a group like that, any insight on that?


I'll say it again, men and women are not equals, I teach this to my kids, I'm a realist.

Yep, you heard right, I'm a cave man that teaches girls that they are not equal to men. (or you can say men are not equal to women if that gives you warm fuzzies)

My girls shoot guns, ride motorcycles, and the oldest wants to hunt boar and deer, I'm all for it. Even in those environments, are the challenges she will face in even a deer hunt DIFFERENT than mine?

The answer is YES, why? I'm male, she is female, it doesn't mean she can't, it means she needs to understand those differences so that she can successfully approach and overcome the challenge. Understanding the difference is a much more logical approach than "I'm equal to a man" beating on her chest and starting the "I am woman hear me roar" bull shit.

That doesn't mean one is better than the other, or one controls the other etc, it means we are different, recognize those differences, there is nothing wrong with them, those differences are what makes couples complete each other - male and female leveraging their strengths/weaknesses as a team in a relationship = marriage.