Irony & Darwin Award

[Firewa11]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/04/new.yo ... ?hpt=hp_c2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh, the irony!

[sauter0966]

umhum umhum umhum

[dufremle]

Funny.

I'm against helmet laws. It should be a person decision. I always wear one when on the sportbike, but I won't wear one when on a cruiser. Personal preference. I shouldn't be forced to wear one.

[DarcShadow]

Same here, I don't like being told I HAVE to wear one, but I also think you're an idiot if you don't.

[fixxervi6]

I agree, shouldn't be law, freedom of choice

[shilka99]

I agree, shouldn't be law, freedom of choice

What about seatbelts?

[fixxervi6]

I agree, shouldn't be law, freedom of choice

What about seatbelts?

Should also be freedom of choice, just like smoking is freedom of choice.

for the record I wear a helmet, a seatbelt, and do not smoke

People should have the right to be stupid, and put themselves in danger. Its not, and should not be the governments job to dictate to people or to protect them from themselves.

I also support things like drugs being legal, for the puprose of choice, I myself have no interest in them and do not do them but what gives me or anyone else the right to tell someone else they can not becuse "its bad for them"

It all boils down to the same thing, someone taking away someone elses right to choose based on their own beliefs, and that I have a major problem with.

[shilka99]

fair enough.

[DemonDuck]

I agree, shouldn't be law, freedom of choice

What about seatbelts?

Should also be freedom of choice, just like smoking is freedom of choice.

for the record I wear a helmet, a seatbelt, and do not smoke

People should have the right to be stupid, and put themselves in danger. Its not, and should not be the governments job to dictate to people or to protect them from themselves.

I also support things like drugs being legal, for the puprose of choice, I myself have no interest in them and do not do them but what gives me or anyone else the right to tell someone else they can not becuse "its bad for them"

It all boils down to the same thing, someone taking away someone elses right to choose based on their own beliefs, and that I have a major problem with.

I was with you till the drugs. Not wearing a helmet or seatbelt only effects you so you should make that decision... smoking is the same. Drugs affect lots of people. I deal with people all day long that say drugs should be legal and that they should not be here because they did not hurt anyone. I say you are not looking at the whole picture. I have never heard of someone mugging somone for cigarette money... or raping someone because the cigarettes took away what little reasoning they had. I have never heard of someone going into a fit of rage from the cigarette's and beating someone or even worse a child to death... or forgetting that they have a child and it dies in the car or gets lost because of the cigarette's. I have never heard of a child being forced into cigarettes and that end up making them an addict the rest their life repeating the cycle. Just my take on it.

[WillK675]

Commen scense laws, like the seatbelt law are stupid. They shouldn't exesits. But they come from the current stupidity in society wich has created the 'liability' factor. Thus the law is in place to reduce/eleminate liabilties. However they do not eleminate freedom of choice. Choise is the one thing that God has given us over any other animal. And no matter what laws or other stipulations are put in place, it is the one thing we will always have no matter what.

You can choose to follow the law, or to break the law. The only thing the laws do, as far as our freedom of choice, is to put reprecussions on some of the choices that we make.

[fixxervi6]

I know where your going DD, and yea, drugs go beyond the individual, but a lot of things do.

But if we are going to go down that road, lets pick two: beer and mary jane

Beer is legal, its a drug, one person in a family makes a choice to use the product and in some cases the entire famly suffers greatly, using that logic beer should be illegal. Smoking is legal, studies show that kids with parents that smoke have more ear and sinus issues, the kid is being impacted. Studies show that kids with parents that drink are more likely to engage in under age drinking that parents that don't.

Mary Jane, I've never heard of any hippy smoking it up then going home and beating up on his old lady, but I've heard plenty about daddy pullin in from the bar and smacking it up on the old lady.

So where do we draw that line, which drugs? Its not an easy answer because it can't be fixed with laws.

So here we have a situation where drugs are illegal, we see problems where it impacts people beyond the user (as well as many legal things doing simlar). Did making it illegal, fix anything? It puts more people behind bars, but people still do it, its still a problem, the "problem" hasn't been fixed.

Legalize it, regulate it, tax it, create jobs, and when they rob that 7/11 to get more crack money warm up the chair. Making it illegal didn't stop them from robbing it to begin with.

Drug wars are a problem, legalize it and the war goes away, and people still do drugs just as they did when they were illegal. Prohibition should have been a good lesson.
Prostitution is a problem, legalize it, regulate it, that will do more to protect under age girls than simply making it illegal because it doesn't stop people from doing it.

When making something a law doesn't fix the problem and removes someones freedom of choice, what have we really created and solved?

What is the helmet law trying to fix? Will it fix it, and is removing someones liberty worth the fix?

[fixxervi6]

Oh and just some background on me with my views:

I've sat besdie a woman that was 8 months pregnent and watched her do lines of crank, I have seen first hand what destruction drugs can have on families. This was not in my household, these were just some people I was around and knew.

Lots of good people, doing bad things so I'm not blind as to what these things do, I've seen it up front and personal.

The fact it was illegal didn't change the situations I saw, the law did nothing to protect that unborn child, simply because you can't fix the problem with laws.

[DarcShadow]

I don't like seatbelt laws, but I can see an argument for them to protect others. A seatbelt would help keep you in the proper driving posstion, ie, in your seat, when you loose control and start to spin. Presumable, you're still in possition to control the car and might be able to recover the spin and avoid hitting anyone else. If you didn't have a belt on you'd be thrown around in the car and have no chance of controlling it.

That being said, by the time you loose control of a car so baddly that it throws you around, I don't believe the average driver is going to be able to recover and control the spin.

On the drug thing, not supporting it, BUT, if it was legal, it would have alot less negative impact on bystanders. No more drug wars, it'd all be ran by big buisness, no more shady deals with drugs cut with deadly stuff, making drugs legal could eliminate a lot of problems. It would create a whole new set of problems though, but that's a whole nother topic. Just sayin.

[fixxervi6]

I don't like seatbelt laws, but I can see an argument for them to protect others. A seatbelt would help keep you in the proper driving posstion, ie, in your seat, when you loose control and start to spin. Presumable, you're still in possition to control the car and might be able to recover the spin and avoid hitting anyone else. If you didn't have a belt on you'd be thrown around in the car and have no chance of controlling it.

That being said, by the time you loose control of a car so baddly that it throws you around, I don't believe the average driver is going to be able to recover and control the spin.

That again comes back to my question of what are you trying to fix, did the law fix it, and was the fix worth removing someons liberties?

[DarcShadow]

I also have to admit, I didn't start wearing a good helmit constantly till I moved to a state that had a helmit law. So while I don't like the law, it did probably save my life.

[DarcShadow]

A better way, I think anyway, to protest a helmit law, would be in a state that doesn't have one, everyone show up for the rally wearing a helmit, showing that you don't need a law to get people to wear them.

[fixxervi6]

I also have to admit, I didn't start wearing a good helmit constantly till I moved to a state that had a helmit law. So while I don't like the law, it did probably save my life.

I didnt' say there weren't benefits and I bet one could produce data that would show that putting the law in would save lives.

My question is, is that a good enough reason to remove someones freedom of choice, I say no. I'd rather see them put the money they spend writing all the crap up and the money they put into enforcing it and redirect it into education.

[DemonDuck]

Well if you legalize the drugs and whatever else then just make sure that my right to kill the person giving my child drugs or the person that hurts my child to get money for them is somewhere in that law. I see your point and it is a good one. Making something illegal does not stop it. Making guns illegal does not keep a criminal from having them it only keeps the honest person from having them. A lock on my house does not keep a thief out ... it only keeps a honest person honest. I have come to terms that I have a good chance of one day being guarded by someone else because of something that might happen to my children.

[Striple]

I grew up an hour's drive from the Dutch border, and have spent a good bit of time in the Netherlands, where cannabis is legally tolerated. Anyone over the age of 18 is able to purchase small amounts of cannabis at a coffee shop, and consume it either at the shop or at home. Smoking weed or hashish is not a big deal in the Netherlands, crime is not running wild, and the streets are not littered with a bunch of stoners endangering themselves or others. The only people who really get excited about cannabis there are the tourists, and mostly the ones who come from countries where even soft drugs are strictly prohibited (like the U.S., or some of the Asian countries).

I agree with DD in that drugs are not isolated factors in society, but then again nothing really is. Everything plays a role in how people are going to be behave, and how they choose to use or abuse different things, be they drugs, weapons, vehicles, or whatever. I'm also a firm believer in the idea that people are always going to do good, evil, smart, and incredibly dumb things, regardless what the circumstances and available items/substances are. Just look at some of the nonsense ideas that we (as a club) can brew up on a good day on the forums - and we are almost certainly smarter than the average person (for instance, most of us have decent jobs and are reasonably well educated). I don't think there is such as thing as a perfect system, and legalizing drugs (or even just soft drugs) is certainly not going to solve all of society's drug-related problems. Nonetheless, ultimately people should be free to be idiots and be able to put themselves at risk as much as they'd like, as long as they are not directly affecting others.

And yes, there will always be scumbags that will leave their babies in the car dying of heat stroke, or raping women, or mugging blind people, etc. This is unfortunately (the evil) part of human nature, and those people should then be dealt with accordingly, but I see no point in dedicating tremendous amounts of resources toward the war on drugs, chasing prostitutes and their customers, etc.

My $0.02.

PS: And yeah, I'm opposed to helmet laws.

[fixxervi6]

Well if you legalize the drugs and whatever else then just make sure that my right to kill the person giving my child drugs or the person that hurts my child to get money for them is somewhere in that law. I see your point and it is a good one. Making something illegal does not stop it. Making guns illegal does not keep a criminal from having them it only keeps the honest person from having them. A lock on my house does not keep a thief out ... it only keeps a honest person honest. I have come to terms that I have a good chance of one day being guarded by someone else because of something that might happen to my children.

There is nothing in place now for stopping someone from giving your child drugs.

My approach with drugs is education, I tell the kids "you ARE going to see XYZ" "you ARE going to get presented with options to do ABC" now lets talk about the choices and the possible outcomes.

They have the freedom to choose regardless of if I forbid it or not, I don't have a kid remote control.

I'm glad I see lots of people here saying they support the not having a helmet law and the support the freedom of choice, guess you guys aren't so bad after all

[DarcShadow]

I know if the drugs were legal I probably would of tried some of them, at least once, like LSD. Seeing things that aren't there is fun. Or maybe they really are there and we just can't see them normally.

[DemonDuck]

I know that all you can do is educate them and hope they make the proper choice. Maybe im being to harsh in wanting to kill the person that gives my kids drugs.... I have no idea what I would do but the way I feel now is all I can say. I also know that if you make drugs legal then there will be no safe place from them. Not that there are any now but if you live in a nicer neighborhood then you will most likely not have a bunch of drugs being sold.... or I hope. Also what DS said is true as well. If it is not illegal then it is kind of like telling your 18 year old kid not to smoke. Other than you looking down on it why not? After all its not against the law. I most likely would have tried drugs if they where legal and I would most likely not have my job I have now and such. I do support freedom of choice for lots of more minor things but not sure I can for drugs. Where do you draw a line ... sports would be completely taken over by drugs ... you would have to use drugs to be able to compete. Now maybe if we where to take the drugs and make sure they where all laced with some kind of drug to make people that used them steril.... that might be a good route. Eventually the problem takes care of itself.

[DarcShadow]

lol

On the sports aspect drugs could still be against the rules of the sport. As is now, several of the various performance enhancement drugs are actually legal, just against the rules of the sport.

[Firewa11]

I'll chime in here on a few points. First, I pretty much agree with most here. Should helmet laws exist? No they shouldn't. However, keep in mind that a lot of people chose to wear helmets because they are following the law. If they suddenly make it legal to not wear a helmet, you're going to have a lot of folks out there without the common sense and the mob mentality of "it must be okay since everyone else is doing it".

Accident rates involving motorcyclists are going to go up. On the ride this weekend, Diabro got hit right in the shield with a rock. Now, without a helmet, that rock would have hit him in the eye. There's a great chance that would have caused an accident (being knocked out, sudden pain, unable to control the bike to safely bring it to a stop before grabbing your eye in agony, etc). I'm not saying Diabro would have wrecked, but the chances are great that he would have.

So, accident rates increase, fatalities increase. Again, personal choice here... and I'm not against that. However, now you've got infrastructure resources being tied up more frequently. Fire, police, ambulance, trauma centers, hospitals, etc. are now quite a bit more busy for the additional wrecks, and likely, additional fatality wrecks. Fatality wrecks close down highways and freeways for investigation, so now traffic jams increase, also impacting other emergency services from responding quickly.

I absolutely agree that personal choice should be a priority, but remember that riding motorcycles on the street is a priveledge, not a right. Just like with seatbelt laws. They are a matter of public safety (allowing you to maintain control of your vehicle in situations that without the seatbelt you would likely be thrown around), but also to limit the amount of fatalities and serious injuries by keeping you strapped in. You can view helmets in the same manner, if you consider the rock example. Getting hit in the head by some road debris with a helmet on will help you maintain control of your motorcycle, and not go down causing a chain reaction wreck that potentially could kill other motorists. And again, they reduce the amount of fatalities and critical injuries, reducing the strain on public emergency services.

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As far as the discussion on legalizing drugs, I believe that most drugs should be legal, at least marijuana. Most have already summed up the viewpoints on the subject, and I'm pretty much in agreement. Free up prisons for real criminals and the evil folks that need to be there. Practically balance the entire budget and greatly reduce the debt this country is in. The federal government alone spent over 15 billion dollars on the completely failed war on drugs last year. Tack on another 25 billion from state and local governments. I don't know about you folks, but I'm pretty sure 40 billion dollars would have been a pretty decent boon to helping keep teachers employed across the country, not to mention the economy itself. Hell, legalizing pot would likely create an all-new LEGAL, taxable industry that would be a serious kickstart to the economy right now. The great depression had WWII, maybe we need legalizing pot

[Striple]

As is now, several of the various performance enhancement drugs are actually legal, just against the rules of the sport.

This actually goes much beyond what it appears to be on the outside. Professional sports generate billions of dollars in revenue, and professional athletes have little choice but to utilize every available legal resource in order to be competitive and gain an edge. Of course there are no reliable data on this, but I'm convinced that the vast majority of professional athletes use performance-enhancing drugs. The key is to stay ahead of the game, and to utilize only those that are either (still) legal or difficult to trace. Just look at professional cycling: a bunch of cyclists have been busted over the past few years, but mostly because they're testing them rigorously during the major events.

There is a great documentary about this topic, called "Bigger, Stronger, Faster". If you haven't seen it, you should rent and watch it tonight!