MSRC October 2011

[El Diabro]

I still have some apprehension that if I take a corner too hot I'm going to end up running off. That makes me mentally lock up when I'm trying to push a little faster and I end up blowing my line through the corner. What I need to work on is trusting that if I stay on the line I can push my entry speed up slowly and I'll still make the corner. Body position is the thing that's going to help there, because it will give me a lean angle reserve to work with.

I'm that way with big bend. I know I should be able to go into it so much faster then I am. The turn is so wide, and opens up, you can fly through it I know, I just can't get over the mental block to allow me to.

...for me, my mental block in the straight before Little bend and it's two-fold at that. 1) I don't want to carry too much speed down the straight because I don't want to be the guy slowing everyone up in the corners and yet being fast on the straight, so I usually limit my top speed....and 2) I have yet to figure out a good braking point to slow down enough to make the turn in at a rate of speed good enough for the track. I know I have some beastly brakes I just have to trust in them and not overdo it at the same time.

So next track day, getting more off the bike, and tackling Lil Bend!!!

RCFan, you listening?

[Rhino]

...for me, my mental block in the straight before Little bend and it's two-fold at that. 1) I don't want to carry too much speed down the straight because I don't want to be the guy slowing everyone up in the corners and yet being fast on the straight, so I usually limit my top speed....and 2) I have yet to figure out a good braking point to slow down enough to make the turn in at a rate of speed good enough for the track. I know I have some beastly brakes I just have to trust in them and not overdo it at the same time.

So next track day, getting more off the bike, and tackling Lil Bend!!!

RCFan, you listening?

I have a similar problem with Little Bend, but it has more to do with the fact that the tip-in point (or at least the X) is all the way at the edge of the track. At first I spent too much time looking at the X instead of setting up for the corner and looking at the apex. I finally figured out that there's a cone right next to that X that I can see in my peripheral vision if I look at the flag stand in Little Bend. There are also more cones leading up to the tip-in that can be used for braking markers. Once I had that figured out the turn got more comfortable for me. I still approach the tip-in a little slow, but that's ok because you can actually get a pretty monster drive out of that corner even if you go in a little slow. It's a very nice corner to accelerate through because you can see your exit point really well, so you can control your drift to the outside with your throttle and not feel like you're going to fly off the track.

I figured out two other things about Rattlesnake later in the day as well. The first is that you can see the 2nd corner apex from the front straight if you look over while you're braking. I'd set up for the X in the middle of the track and squeeze on the brakes. Once the front end settled I'd look right and find that 2nd cone and fix it in my mind, then I'd look for the tip-in point and start straightening out the first chicane.

The other thing was that if you stay just inside the inner seam going into the first bend of Rattlesnake, you'll see a black line across the track. That's the perfect point to tip in further to apex and get the first chicane pretty straightened out. So you tip in at the X, but make a more gentle curve following the seam in the track until you hit that black mark, then you tip in harder and apex. That sets you up so as you crest the hill you're already pointed pretty much at the apex for the first left. It gives you a chance to straighten up the bike and add a little throttle then brake for the left-hander. At that point I was looking for the two apexes for the second chicane so I could straighten those out too. The second chicane was more maintenance throttle for me, but you could actually accelerate down that hill toward the pit-out if you're willing to brake before tipping in for Wagon Wheel, or if you are willing to trail-brake into Wagon Wheel. I'm not comfortable braking into a downhill off-camber late apex turn, so I just maintained speed and worried about sticking to the line around Wagon Wheel.

[DarcShadow]

I still approach the tip-in a little slow, but that's ok because you can actually get a pretty monster drive out of that corner even if you go in a little slow.

That's what racing schools have been teaching for years, slow in fast out. Bit surprised RS doesn't ever mention that. Not only is it the fast way, it's the safe way.

[fixxervi6]

I'm not comfortable braking into a downhill off-camber late apex turn, so I just maintained speed and worried about sticking to the line around Wagon Wheel.

I wouldn't trail brake into wagon wheel, not even a little bit, but thats just me, I lost the front end there just by rolling off the throttle once, it stood back up on its own because I didn't chop it, I got stupid lucky.

1. Body position
2. Going for it

By going for it, I mean that I need to push my corner entry speeds up. I'm getting really strong drives OUT of corners, but not so much going IN to them.

I'll give you my .01, I don't like to nomrally give my .01 without it being asked for because some people get offended but I feel strong enough about this that I feel compelled to post.

Forget about number 2, here is why I say that.

You won smoothest rider and your getting good drive outs so your lines and throttle control must be spot on. Looking at your tires and pictures your out of lean angle, if you go for it your gonna 1. blow your lines or 2. run off in the grass or 3. skid out on a low side.

Number 1 is your friend, if you reduce lean angle but keep your lines and smoothness you've been running you'll open up a lot of room for speed. If you go in hotter without reduced lean angle you'll have 3 options that I listed above because increased couter steering to correct is gonna bite you, trail braking at your lean angles would probably be a very bad idea too I don't know, never pushed a trail brake that hard before I'd ask firewall about that.

Just throwing it out there, not trying to tell you what to do, just don't wanna see you go down when your kickin ass with smoothest rider etc.

[Firewa11]

I trail brake into every corner

[fixxervi6]

I trail brake into every corner

I'm trying this on purpose now, sometimes I do it aggressive when I have to but other times I do it VERY VERY lightly even if my speed doesn't require it.

1. I figure if I start now when I'm not pushing it at all my brain will become used to performing this, so when I get faster it's more natural and not a new task
2. Any sinking of the front end helps with tip in
3. Going to team up this act with hooking my outside heel on the peg to get down my setup/trail brake moves smoother, hard to explain that one, something they were talking about in level 2 classroom that will help me a lot with my setups while braking.

I figure if I build the muscle memory and train the brain NOW, when I get fast enough that I NEED it, it'll come easier.

[shilka99]

Rhino in full HD
(Should this be in the videos section?)

[DarcShadow]

I'd like to see some numbers on this. Trail braking forces you to go into a turn at less of a lean angle. You then have to gradually lean the bike more and more till you get to the apex. This causes you to make the turn sharper then it actually is so you're at max lean for your this now sharper turn and our apex speed is slower. However, if you did all your braking upright and snapped the bike over to the max lean angle needed for this turn, you'd be able to carry much more speed at the apex point and therefor get a much stronger drive out of the turn. Also, because you are turning, physics says you slow down. Since you don't need to you get on the gas and accelerate so that when you get to the apex you're at your max speed possible and you then start to stand the bike up and get on it harder. The other advantage this is you are keeping the bike balanced and not loading the front suspension. By keeping the bike balanced you're giving the suspension the chance to do it's job and allow you to go faster/smoother. If you're on the brakes, leaned over and hit any sort of bump, you do not have as much travel left for th suspension to absorb the bump which can then cause you to run wide, or dump it.

The reason racers trail brake is more for possitioning rather then flat out speed.

[Rhino]

I still approach the tip-in a little slow, but that's ok because you can actually get a pretty monster drive out of that corner even if you go in a little slow.

That's what racing schools have been teaching for years, slow in fast out. Bit surprised RS doesn't ever mention that. Not only is it the fast way, it's the safe way.

They talk about that in L1 now.

[fixxervi6]

I'd like to see some numbers on this. Trail braking forces you to go into a turn at less of a lean angle. You then have to gradually lean the bike more and more till you get to the apex. This causes you to make the turn sharper then it actually is so you're at max lean for your this now sharper turn and our apex speed is slower. However, if you did all your braking upright and snapped the bike over to the max lean angle needed for this turn, you'd be able to carry much more speed at the apex point and therefor get a much stronger drive out of the turn. Also, because you are turning, physics says you slow down. Since you don't need to you get on the gas and accelerate so that when you get to the apex you're at your max speed possible and you then start to stand the bike up and get on it harder. The other advantage this is you are keeping the bike balanced and not loading the front suspension. By keeping the bike balanced you're giving the suspension the chance to do it's job and allow you to go faster/smoother. If you're on the brakes, leaned over and hit any sort of bump, you do not have as much travel left for th suspension to absorb the bump which can then cause you to run wide, or dump it.

The reason racers trail brake is more for possitioning rather then flat out speed.

I would guess it depends on the turn too, a turn that a quick flick works great on trail braking my work good on, a flat out sweeper obviously trail braking is bad. On the fip side you can't be doing a slight roll on TO the apex to maintain good traction then punching it for a drive out past the apeks. What has me torn on it is keith code.

I think I can go watch the qualifying laps on motogp.com, if the motogp guys are doing trail braking on qualifying laps then I'm sold, because, those guys are gods.

[Rhino]

Forget about number 2, here is why I say that.

You won smoothest rider and your getting good drive outs so your lines and throttle control must be spot on. Looking at your tires and pictures your out of lean angle, if you go for it your gonna 1. blow your lines or 2. run off in the grass or 3. skid out on a low side.

Number 1 is your friend, if you reduce lean angle but keep your lines and smoothness you've been running you'll open up a lot of room for speed. If you go in hotter without reduced lean angle you'll have 3 options that I listed above because increased couter steering to correct is gonna bite you, trail braking at your lean angles would probably be a very bad idea too I don't know, never pushed a trail brake that hard before I'd ask firewall about that.

Just throwing it out there, not trying to tell you what to do, just don't wanna see you go down when your kickin ass with smoothest rider etc.

I hear what you're saying, and believe me I understand all that stuff. I don't mean I'm just going to go charging into corners, I mean that I'm currently leaving myself *too much* safety cushion.

Even when I'm driving hard out of some corners, I don't end up going as fast as I could. I know this because I'm not naturally drifting to the edge of the track in corners like Ricochet and Big Bend. Those are the corners where I could change nothing else but my corner entry speed and still stay on the track no problem.

As I mentioned, body position is the other thing I'm working on. Those two combined will help me raise my total speed through a corner, both on entry and exit, while maintaining the same hard drive-out I'm getting now.

In any case, I'm not the kind of rider that will push hard without staying comfortable. I'm constantly monitoring my mental state on the track. If I'm not at least thinking about the corner exit at tip-in, then I'm riding too fast. At my "learning" pace, I'm going at a speed and comfort level where I'm thinking about the next turn in a set as I'm entering the current one.

What has me torn on it is keith code.

Keep in mind, Keith Code trained some of those "gods". Also remember that MotoGP riders are just fast, they're not perfect or even necessarily right for you. They have a huge range of styles from flowing poetry in motion to harsh forceful control of the bike. Either of those styles can win races, but you're personally going to fall more to one side of the spectrum or the other.

[DarcShadow]

I think I can go watch the qualifying laps on motogp.com, if the motogp guys are doing trail braking on qualifying laps then I'm sold, because, those guys are gods.

I'm not so sure about that. It would require being very good at two different riding styles. The motogp guys are going to pratice and be good at what will work in the race even if it slightly slower in an open track condition. They brake markers, turn in points, throttle position would all be off. Saddly I don't believe there is any real way to test which way is faster. The closest would be to do some very complex calculations of lean angle, speed, weight, grip, and a whole lot of other factors that no sain person could comprehend.

Don't get me wrong, trail braking is a great skill to have, and well worth practicing. I'm not not convinced it's the fastest way around a track. Kind of like drifting, it looks fast and would seem to be faster cause you can go into a turn much faster, but it's been proven time and time again it's actually slower.

[fixxervi6]

Thats why I was thinking about watching the qualifier rounds, in that they go for the fastest lap time they can possibly get right?

[Rhino]

I think was DS was saying is "not necessarily". They are just going fast enough to qualify. It's also rounds where they can practice "race" lines, i.e. blocking people, stuffing into corners, etc.

[fixxervi6]

I don't mean I'm just going to go charging into corners, I mean that I'm currently leaving myself *too much* safety cushion.

Keep in mind, Keith Code trained some of those "gods". Also remember that MotoGP riders are just fast, they're not perfect or even necessarily right for you. They have a huge range of styles from flowing poetry in motion to harsh forceful control of the bike. Either of those styles can win races, but you're personally going to fall more to one side of the spectrum or the other.

If your at max lean angle, your out of safety cushion.

MotoGP riders are a lot faster than me and pretty much faster than I'll ever be. I'll learn from and emulate anyone that is faster than me, when I max that out I'll look for the next person to learn from, perfect or not.

Those CMRA racers at ride smart are far from perfect, I don't agree with everything they say, but they are better than me, I'm going to suck their brains for all I can and move on.

If I try to emulate something from motoGP that makes me faster but is not the fastest way around the track, I'll cross that bridge when I master it looking for the next step up.

You said it, motogp riders are just fast riders, thats why I'm trying to be.

[fixxervi6]

I think was DS was saying is "not necessarily". They are just going fast enough to qualify. It's also rounds where they can practice "race" lines, i.e. blocking people, stuffing into corners, etc.

Ok then why do they have qualifier open practice, then qualifyer runs for poll posisiton? It seams like they would use the practice rounds for things like blocking and race lines and use the qualifier run for poll posisiton, aka fast as you can possibly do it, no?

This is the first time in my life I've watched racing so I don't fully get it.

[DarcShadow]

What I"m saying is there are two very different lines if you're trail braking vs not and it would be a good amount of work for a rider to learn a track using one riding style, they go back and relearn the track for a different riding style. Not saying it can't be done, but I don't think it would be worth it. Not trail braking you might be a half a second faster per lap, but you are going to spend alot of our pratice time learning the the brake points, etc and then not have as much practice running the track how you will in the actual race.

Also, in the RS world, since you are not allowed to pass on the inside, there is no need to trail brake for the block and if you can get a better drive out of the turn by not trail braking it'll make passing easier.

[El Diabro]

almost afraid to ask this question, but besides getting my body off more, does anyone who saw me riding have any suggestions?

[fixxervi6]

What I"m saying is there are two very different lines if you're trail braking vs not and it would be a good amount of work for a rider to learn a track using one riding style, they go back and relearn the track for a different riding style. Not saying it can't be done, but I don't think it would be worth it. Not trail braking you might be a half a second faster per lap, but you are going to spend alot of our pratice time learning the the brake points, etc and then not have as much practice running the track how you will in the actual race.

Also, in the RS world, since you are not allowed to pass on the inside, there is no need to trail brake for the block and if you can get a better drive out of the turn by not trail braking it'll make passing easier.

Gotcha, hmm, they were pushing it in the class room for the tip in advantage.

Why does it have to be so damn complicated

[fixxervi6]

almost afraid to ask this question, but besides getting my body off more, does anyone who saw me riding have any suggestions?

More wheelies man!

Got links to your pics? got any video of you?

[El Diabro]

almost afraid to ask this question, but besides getting my body off more, does anyone who saw me riding have any suggestions?

More wheelies man!

Got links to your pics? got any video of you?

there's a ton of pics just haven't went through and decided which ones to purchase yet. I believe Shaun got me on video at some point but we'll have to wait and see. I definitely want to have a camera set up by the next Cresson run!

[shilka99]

I'm going through the video now. I didnt know it but after running a test of the 3D system my helmet cam was set to upside down, so now i have to convert half the videos to flip them then edit to cut the relevant clips out. slow process but going just fine so far.

[Rhino]

What I"m saying is there are two very different lines if you're trail braking vs not and it would be a good amount of work for a rider to learn a track using one riding style, they go back and relearn the track for a different riding style. Not saying it can't be done, but I don't think it would be worth it. Not trail braking you might be a half a second faster per lap, but you are going to spend alot of our pratice time learning the the brake points, etc and then not have as much practice running the track how you will in the actual race.

Also, in the RS world, since you are not allowed to pass on the inside, there is no need to trail brake for the block and if you can get a better drive out of the turn by not trail braking it'll make passing easier.

Gotcha, hmm, they were pushing it in the class room for the tip in advantage.

Why does it have to be so damn complicated

What, you want motorcycles to be EASY?

When I get up to L2, please listen to the instructors and trail brake. I'll look forward to watching you go past me on corner entry and driving right past you on corner exit.

[fixxervi6]

What I"m saying is there are two very different lines if you're trail braking vs not and it would be a good amount of work for a rider to learn a track using one riding style, they go back and relearn the track for a different riding style. Not saying it can't be done, but I don't think it would be worth it. Not trail braking you might be a half a second faster per lap, but you are going to spend alot of our pratice time learning the the brake points, etc and then not have as much practice running the track how you will in the actual race.

Also, in the RS world, since you are not allowed to pass on the inside, there is no need to trail brake for the block and if you can get a better drive out of the turn by not trail braking it'll make passing easier.

Gotcha, hmm, they were pushing it in the class room for the tip in advantage.

Why does it have to be so damn complicated

What, you want motorcycles to be EASY?

When I get up to L2, please listen to the instructors and trail brake. I'll look forward to watching you go past me on corner entry and driving right past you on corner exit.

Bring it

[shilka99]

I have a video of Blizz and Tel converting now. should be ready to upload to youtube in about 10 minutes.

If anyone wants the raw video files, go to dropbox.com and download the application. if you use me as a referrer (shaun.nielsen@maxithc.com) that will give me enough added storage to upload these videos then everyone can download them and watch in full 1080p.

Here it is: