March ECR Roll Call

[DarcShadow]

Did a session like that with the Keith Code school. 3rd gear (or was it second), no brake for the entire session. Don't remember exactly what it was supose to teach us, but it was interesting. I did have to hit the brake slightly once I remember, picked up a bit too much speed down one of the straights.

[Rhino]

It seems like going straight to no-brake would be a recipe for getting scared, freezing up, and running off the track.

If I were you, I'd work on slowly raising my corner entry speeds until you get to the point that you're not using the brakes much.

Ride the 1.7 again. As you get more experience with the track, you'll get more comfortable with making small tweaks at a time to each corner. Just pick a corner and work on going into it a little faster each time. That keeps you from spending all $10 of your concentration on going "oh shit oh shit oh shit".

Start with an easy corner like Ricochet, where it's impossible for your 250 to take it too fast. You should be WFO going through that entire corner, so work up to that. When you're comfortable with cornering faster there, work on cornering faster on other turns, like Horseshoe/Boot Hill/Tombstone, another one you can take WFO. Then work on trickier corners like Little Bend and Wagon Wheel, where you have to be a little braver to carry speed (Little Bend because of the decreasing radius, Wagon Wheel because it's off-camber and has the Pit of Death at the drift-out point near the flag stand).

[DarcShadow]

Na, cause you don't get up as much speed because you know you can't slow down. It acually give you more time to be aware of the situation and gives you less things to think about. Not braking or shifting gears allows you to focus on lines and the track. You're overall speed is rather slow, and it's something I'd suggest doing the first or second session out, but after that move on to the next stage.

[milesmiles]

Riding with no brakes is a great way to learn! With that being said this doesn't mean you don't hit your brakes if going to fast. This article explains it

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flash ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shilka99]

Riding with no brakes is a great way to learn! With that being said this doesn't mean you don't hit your brakes if going to fast. This article explains it

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flash ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did anyone else see MAHart's smiley face on that page?

[milesmiles]

hmmm must have changed it, i don't see him anymore

[Telomere]

I will be working on my entry speed and braking and such but I don't know the strategy yet. I have this same issue while on the street. I slam on my brakes before entering and then go "well shit, I could have entered going a hell of a lot faster". My brain tells me I can't go that fast because I would wreck (might have something to do with me already wrecking...I don't know) but I think if I can get over that then I might be a little bit faster both on the track and on the street. It is a complete mental block with me and I need to work on getting over that somehow. Everyone has something that holds them back and this is mine. If using no brakes for a session or two helps then YAY for me but that is what the track is for, right? To learn?

Yes, I see his smiling face with his Hawaiian get-up around his neck

[Striple]

Telomere, just take it easy and get more track time. If Dave, fixxer, and myself can go around the track at a decent pace, so can you.

[Telomere]

Telomere, just take it easy and get more track time. If Dave, fixxer, and myself can go around the track at a decent pace, so can you.

I do take it easy both on the track and street. I know I take it too easy (like grandma pace) because I see a corner and think shit too hot, slow down, so I do and then I am like WTF, I could of hit that going a lot faster.

[milesmiles]

Now i'm not sure if this will help, but have you rode with fixxer around some corners a a bit faster pace than yourself? I'm not saying go out there and get hurt, but this would give you a better idea possibly

[Telomere]

Now i'm not sure if this will help, but have you rode with fixxer around some corners a a bit faster pace than yourself? I'm not saying go out there and get hurt, but this would give you a better idea possibly

I ride with him a lot and I have 2-upped with him and he scares the bejesus out of me!! Not that he is unsafe, it is because he rides completely different than I do and he enters the corners faster than I would. Maybe I hit my head super duper hard when I jumped off my bike on FM 2450 and it is all just a jumble of mush in there.

[WillK675]

[quote="TelomereI see a corner and think shit too hot, slow down, so I do and then I am like WTF, I could of hit that going a lot faster. [/quote]


We all do that. When you do that just roll more on the throttle, lean into it more, and exit faster. The key is slow in, fast out. The more times you do it, the faster you'll get on your entry speed, you just have to build up to it.

And it's not a bad thing to do it this way. Because you don't want to get to a corner you don't know, and end up going in too hot.

[Striple]

Now i'm not sure if this will help, but have you rode with fixxer around some corners a a bit faster pace than yourself? I'm not saying go out there and get hurt, but this would give you a better idea possibly

I ride with him a lot and I have 2-upped with him and he scares the bejesus out of me!! Not that he is unsafe, it is because he rides completely different than I do and he enters the corners faster than I would. Maybe I hit my head super duper hard when I jumped off my bike on FM 2450 and it is all just a jumble of mush in there.

Nah, its normal to be apprehensive about entering a corner (too) fast, especially if you've gone down before. After my lowside at MSRC last year, it took me about 4-5 track days to get back up to pace. Its a mental thing, and it is completely normal. You'll be at the pace that you want to be at soon enough, just give yourself time and do as many track days as you can get away with.

[DarcShadow]

Yeah, and don't even thing about trail braking. Do all your braking in a striaght line while straight up and down, then get back on the gas and throw it into the corner. You want to actually accelerate slightly through the entire turn so that it keeps you at a constant speed and keeps the bike balanced and then accelerate harder once you hit the apex.

[Firewa11]

Don't ride over your own pace. No matter what, ride your own ride. Corner entry speed is one that you just have start a little faster and realize that you can make it, without exceeding your limits, or the bike's. It's along the same concept as the 'go for it or crash' mentality. Almost every time when you go for it when coming into a corner, you and the bike can handle it. It's when you come in hot and panic and try to straighten up and ride it out that usually ends up with problems.

That all being said, there is nothing wrong with slowly getting faster. I would start with just a few corners at a time to practice on, those that are the 'safer' (faster) corners, and start with them. Pick a point that you normally start slowing down, getting on the brakes, etc. Patches at ECR work well, skid marks, a large tuft of grass (never a cone). But something along those lines. Pick that as YOUR marker. Then see where you normally go into it. Say, you pass that patch of something, then you count 1-one-thousand 2-one-thousand, then your normally slow down or start braking...

Next time, try doing the same thing exactly and make sure you're consistent.

3rd time around, count one-one-thousand two-one-thousand three, and then start slowing down / braking. See how your speed is there.

Next time, try it again, and make sure you're comfortable with that. If you feel like you can have a bit more, next time try one-one-thousand two-one-thousand three-one, and then start your slowing down / braking.

This technique helped me get more comfortable carrying more speed into the corner, and it also has you slowly start incrementing instead of diving in too fast, over your head.

[Rhino]

I will be working on my entry speed and braking and such but I don't know the strategy yet. I have this same issue while on the street. I slam on my brakes before entering and then go "well shit, I could have entered going a hell of a lot faster".

You've already got it figured out. You go in too slow, think "I could have gone faster", then next lap go a little bit faster. Rinse, repeat until you're going quick. There are so many variables that impact your cornering speed that you really need to work on them one at a time to stay safe.

I went through the exact same thing. You remember how godawful slow I was at ECR my very first track day? I had the same problem you're having. I went into corners really slow and then felt mid-corner like I could have been going faster, but didn't want to get on the throttle too hard either. It took a few track days before I got the hang of it. The trick for me was repeating the same track. Half of the first day I was spending learning the track layout, knowing what corners were coming up when. It wasn't until I did Barber for the second day in a row that I realized the benefit of doing the same track again. I could apply everything I had learned the day before. Instead of feeling a little lost, I always knew where I was on the track and what turns were coming up. That gave me the mental freedom to focus on 2-3 corners at a time, trying to improve them with each lap and just "getting through" the rest of the corners.

I think that if you go back to the MSRC 1.7 again you'll see what I'm talking about. After the 1st or 2nd session you'll feel like it's a lot easier to get around the track, so you can start working on speeding up in specific places.

And seriously, you need to read A Twist of the Wrist Vol 1. It's all about the methodical, systematic, scientific approach to going faster on the track, along with dealing with your fears and mental blocks. I think it's exactly what you need right now.

Edit: And what Firewa11 described is *exactly* how I got faster in some of the corners at Barber, especially Turn 1. I started progressively moving my braking point further and further down the straight until I realized I could comfortably do Turn 1 at 100mph+ (racers probably take it at 150+) and drop more speed for 2 during the left-to-right transition, since it's uphill anyway. When that clicked in my head, I was the fastest guy in L1 going through turn 1 by a long shot. I passed anybody and everybody in that turn by blowing right up the inside of them right after the apex, or getting around them on the outside of 2 (basically the same line, just different passing points).

[DarcShadow]

Yeah, barber turn 1 can be deceiving, it looks a lot worse then it is and you can take it a crazy speeds, if you turn in early enough.

[Bewst]

Start with an easy corner like Ricochet, where it's impossible for your 250 to take it too fast.

This is how you DO NOT take Ricochet!! lmao

Bryce and I in my step dads Porsche taking Ricochet faster and faster til we took it too fast...110mph

[Telomere]

We will see how 1.7 on Sunday goes I am sure most of you guys will be there but not riding with me (because y'all are too damn good for me to keep up with...but I am not pushing myself to catch up to you...that is why on certain street rides, I don't go). All of this info/advice is good...I will try to remember it all when I go there next month but with my old age, I might forget.

[Firewa11]

Niiiice

[El Diabro]

I think I have the same issue at Telomere.....I brake way too soon, but also, I don't carry enough straight speed. I know the object isn't to rocket down the straights, but a faster straight = faster lap = faster rider. I also think part of that is that I don't want to slow everyone up, but that was even on the 750 this past weekend. That was only my second time at ECR, and on a new/different bike so that may have had something to do with it. I feel a lot more comfortable at MSRC, so we'll see how I do in May

[Firewa11]

Most people do feel more comfortable at Cresson, I know I was one of them. ECR is a bit intimidating with signficantly blind corners, long (fast) straights, and track issues (patches, gravel, etc). I learned at Cresson so it's by default my favorite track.

Whatever technique you choose to use when working on your speed in the straights and corners, make sure you work on improvements slowly and take things at your own pace. Do not get caught into the trap of 'faster faster faster crash' that so many people do. Technique first, speed later, and make changes in small increments. It's kinda like getting your knee down for the first time. You'll see people struggle all day long, hanging off their bike in the most rediculous manner just trying to touch that knee on the track. Then as time goes on, they stop being focused on getting the knee down, focus on technique instead, get faster, then OMG OMG OMG I got my knee down!

As far as speed in the straights, more speed does mean faster lap times and a faster rider. But it also means more braking and more corner entry control. Going WOT down the straights requires you to pay close attention to when you shut her down to go into the corner. I've been in "oh shit" moments more times than I can count because I was pushing hard on the straight, then blew my braking marker because I was trying to overtake someone / out-brake someone and ended up braking waaaay deep into the corner, and thinking back there are so many times that I should have went down because of it, but by the grace of God I somehow made it through.

Again, the lesson here is to take things slowly and methodically to improve all aspects of your track experience.

[DemonDuck]

If I was to ever get a track bike and you still need a bike to ride at the track Firewall...... I will let you use my trackbike as long as you do personal instruction for me..... You can use the trackbike ill use my regular bike and you can show me the ropes. What ya say? (you will probably have your own before I get a track bike though).

[El Diabro]

Yeah, I will try to remember that the next track day. Good solid advice.

[Grinner]

Most people do feel more comfortable at Cresson, I know I was one of them. ECR is a bit intimidating with signficantly blind corners, long (fast) straights, and track issues (patches, gravel, etc). I learned at Cresson so it's by default my favorite track.

Whatever technique you choose to use when working on your speed in the straights and corners, make sure you work on improvements slowly and take things at your own pace. Do not get caught into the trap of 'faster faster faster crash' that so many people do. Technique first, speed later, and make changes in small increments. It's kinda like getting your knee down for the first time. You'll see people struggle all day long, hanging off their bike in the most rediculous manner just trying to touch that knee on the track. Then as time goes on, they stop being focused on getting the knee down, focus on technique instead, get faster, then OMG OMG OMG I got my knee down!

As far as speed in the straights, more speed does mean faster lap times and a faster rider. But it also means more braking and more corner entry control. Going WOT down the straights requires you to pay close attention to when you shut her down to go into the corner. I've been in "oh shit" moments more times than I can count because I was pushing hard on the straight, then blew my braking marker because I was trying to overtake someone / out-brake someone and ended up braking waaaay deep into the corner, and thinking back there are so many times that I should have went down because of it, but by the grace of God I somehow made it through.

Again, the lesson here is to take things slowly and methodically to improve all aspects of your track experience.

Very good advice! I also think this can be where a little bit of an issue in the communication department between the instructors and the students is causing some of the "OH CHIT's!!!" you are referring to. I say this because when I did the lvl2 classroom last year @ MSR-C one of the things that was causing a hiccup in my head was because all they talked about was more racing environment and not running a faster comfortable pace for yourself. I say this because like you were stating about messing up while trying to beat someone into the corner (which there is nothing wrong with this), I personally choose to not race into the corner because there is no prize worth it at a trackday. If I start racing, I will probably change my outlook on this but for now, a trackday is for me to learn to get better at riding at a faster pace in a safe environment that could one day push me to dip my toes in the competitive pool. So on that, I choose to go/no go depending on whether I KNOW Im going into that corner where and how I want or am I being rushed just because this ride in front of me is upsetting my focus to the point that it has become all about trying to get around them and I could just as easily hot pit and go back to focusing on what I am trying to do for myself.